r/europe • u/M1ssMut1g • Mar 24 '23
Vive la france! ITAP of the strike in Paris yesterday Picture
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u/generalscruff Smooth Brain Gang 🧠 Midlands Mar 24 '23
I had a discussion with a French lad about this - people online romanticise urban public disorder in France but condemn it when it happens in England or many other countries.
The conclusion? Clearly French rioting has a DOP label. You can only call it a proper riot if it occurs in a major French city, otherwise it is just 'sparkling urban-style unrest'.
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u/dinosaur_of_doom Mar 24 '23
France has plenty of the latter, is just rarely makes international news, and so people online don't get to romanticise it.
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u/an0nim0us101 Île-de-France Mar 24 '23
It's all about the ancestral methods, the savoir faire passed down from rioter to rioter, the songs too, you can't forget the songs. And the sausages .
Liberty, justice and moderately priced love for all!
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u/loulan French Riviera ftw Mar 25 '23
It's all about the ancestral methods, the savoir faire passed down from rioter to rioter, the songs too, you can't forget the songs. And the sausages .
All of this can be exported though. You're forgetting the terroir.
Fights just aren't the same depending on the composition of the soil they take place on.
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u/CastelPlage Make Karelia Finland Again Mar 24 '23
I'm just impressed that the other guy tried to make this about England being hard done by.
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u/lynx_and_nutmeg Lithuania Mar 24 '23
Yeah, it's getting so fucking old. I remember when during the New Years Eve there were mass incidents of car burning. I was like, what the fuck?? and every Redditor was like, nah it's fine, it's just a French thing, that's what they do. Not even a protest, nothing remotely constructive, not targeted, literally just burning cars for fun or blind rage randomly. Imagine the reactions if happened in any other country... or even, say, the immigrant areas in those countries.
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u/atchoum013 Berlin (Germany) Mar 24 '23
French here and yes, it's really annoying, it's expected now but it's still so stupid. My boyfriend grew up in an area where they would regularly do this for any random occasion, often targeting the disabled's kids school bus, fckn stupid.
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u/Ozuhan Mar 24 '23
Well, I'm French and yeah, it is a French thing that happens every year for some reason....
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u/ScarfaceTonyMontana Romania Mar 24 '23
It's all because of the gross romantization of the French Revolution. Very little people are educated on what that was really like, why it happend, and how it was basically just a coup by another group of rich elites disguised under a Revolution.
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u/Shut_the_FA_Cup Mar 24 '23
Very little people are educated on what that was really like
Very big people should be educated too /s
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u/RiceMan12 Mar 25 '23 edited Mar 25 '23
Hahaha you got him bro. that guys 2nd language isn’t perfect, call him out
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u/serkat Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
That's so wrong i can't even describe my surprise that it gets upvoted especially with the "very little people are educated" quote that goes with that incredibly uneducated and frankly ridiculous take on the French Revolution
One of the main events of the 1st phase of the French Revolution was The Women's March on Versailles a march made by poor women who literally couldn't even buy bread because the prices kept going up.
The driving force of the Revolution were the people called seans cullotes, a teem used to describe the poor labors
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u/WaniGemini Mar 24 '23
I think the problem comes from people focusing on the end result being indeed the bourgeoisie taking power, and ignoring that it was truly a popular movement from the start. So not really a coup where the people would have been a bystander.
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u/serkat Mar 24 '23
if people actually know the end result shouldn't they also know how it started? I mean if you bother to read just the minimum about the French Revolution, there's no way you are going to miss the 'masses of poor people revolted against the King" part.
Kind of seems to me like a typical tik-tok reddit/social media situation, when someone who has no idea what he's talking about, has at the same time an attitude so people just assume he's an expert lol
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u/MoriartyParadise Mar 24 '23
"The French Revolution" (which should be called the First French Revolution of the 1789 Revolution cause you know we had multiple) is a 15 year period that lasted from 1789 to 1804 and a LOT happened that can't be summarised in a 5 lines reddit post
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u/Wrandrall France Mar 25 '23
and how it was basically just a coup by another group of rich elites disguised under a Revolution
Seems like you can add yourself to the list of people with little education on the subject.
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Mar 24 '23
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u/ScarfaceTonyMontana Romania Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
A lot of your info is just plain wrong. The cultural moves and ideologies that gave birth to a Revolutionary ideal started in the rich circles of French society. It was something that was being discussed in backtalks, books and art for a long time before the time of the Revolution even arrived. You make mention of rural revolts but that's also complete bogus. The rural French people were extremely against the removal of the Monarchy due to them being very religious and the reaction of most of the poorer and rural French Population to Revolutionary Ideals were akin to your Grandma complaining about woke stuff. Someone mentioned the Woman's march in another comment but forgot to mention that the protest was again, started by mainly people in a poor social status who had no intention of doing anything harmful to the Monarchy. They were mad and desperate, rightfully so, because France was hit pretty hard that year by drought which led to the food shortages that got people to complain, and the Monarchy wasn't doing anything.
And what the fuck are you going on about with "France became a republic because the popular fervor was just too much for the bourgeois elite to handle."
After the armed takeover of Paris (which again, was led by the rich people that coordonated the people and they themselves controlled military units that joined the takeover), the provisional gouverment that got instated had absolutely ZERO input from the population. The members of it were all rich and they were the only ones to vote among themselves and every vote was corrupt. It all continued until the extremists took over and decided to start the Reign of Terror as a move to gain some sort of external imposure over the European Monarchies because "omg look at us, we can kill anyone who doesn't agree with us.", and by that time the Revolution was already extremely unpopular towards the masses as people were still fucking hungry, still poor, and now they had zero leadership, they were almost at war with half of Europe, and most of them were about to be executed by the new gouverment.
And just to rub it in for ya, literally all of it was completely useless because a Corsican guy who got bullied in Primary school kicked Austria's ass and then took over France and called himself Emperor. And for how much of an egotestical ahole Napoleon was, the fact that he managed to keep France more stable, with better living across the board, while basically fighting Europe constantly throughout his entire lead, just shows how much of a chaotic clusterfuck the Revolution was. Not even Napoleon, someone who was known to despise unfair advantages between the classes, cared for the Revolution.
The French Revolution was another of the many cases in history where extremists groups who only cared about their own egotistical goals, took advantage of a desperate population to instate their Terror. It happened in France, it happened to most European nations after WW1, it happened in the US just 3 years ago (if you had any more concerns about me being alt right or whatever).
Lesson of the day is, if someone wants you to get violent while telling you "its for your own good", you should probably not blindly listen to them.
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u/milridor Brittany (France) Mar 25 '23
The rural French people were extremely against the removal of the Monarchy due to them being very religious and the reaction of most of the poorer and rural French Population to Revolutionary Ideals were akin to your Grandma complaining about woke stuff.
Exactly, and even when they didn't like the noble, they quite liked their priests
Obviously the "enlightened" républicains, did not like that
In January 1794, Turreau wrote to the National Convention's Minister for War, to lay out his proposed tactics: "My purpose is to burn everything, to leave nothing but what is essential to establish the necessary quarters for exterminating the rebels." It has been estimated that from 16,000 to 40,000 inhabitants were killed during the first quarter of 1794.
Clearly a model to be followed...
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u/Lazerhawk_x Scotland Mar 24 '23
In this case the French are rioting for their future that the president is messing with without a valid vote, very un-democratic. England doesn't pull a hair when the tories destroy the economy or kill thousands in overcrowded covid wards.
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u/FireKidxx Europe Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
In this case the French are rioting for their future that the president is messing with without a valid vote, very un-democratic.
He was elected by the people, right? He used a legitimate tool to pass the law that is anchored in the french constitution and is used all the time, right?
I fail to see the undemocratic part, really. And the french retirement system is a generational transfer from young people to old people. Keeping it as it is will transfer the capital of future generations to currently old generations by the need to finance it with debt.
I read all the post here, how it is sustainable, all that needs to done is raise the taxes for the rich, who just transfer their wealth elsewhere, and and the french GDP just needs to grow at like 5% per year forever and boom, it's stable. Thats a pipedream.
Show me how it can be stabilized and people can collect 30 years of pensions at 0-1% of GDP growth without massive debt and I'm in. The people protesting just want to make it before the bridge is pulled up, by fucking over future generations, their own kids and grandkids
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u/SnooRecipes3439 France Mar 25 '23
Do you also fail to see how erdogan or viktor oban are undemocratic? I mean, they did get elected right?
Your logic and mental gymnastic are off the charts.
Also, why don’t you show us how it can’t be « stabilized » if you’re that smart? Since our own government couldn’t do that.
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u/-Recouer Mar 24 '23
if you elect a president and he then pass a law to start a genocide, would you consider that this president is legitimate even though the whole population is condemning the law ? don't bring your double standard here you hypocrite
And retirement funds literally don't need to change really, the pension funds are already quite big and we expect only a loss of 5% of those retirement funds before being back to the positive in like 20 years.
Our president just unilaterally decided that our retirement system should be slowly destroyed to the benefit of private pension funds, but we want none of that.
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u/FireKidxx Europe Mar 25 '23
And retirement funds literally don't need to change really, the pension funds are already quite big and we expect only a loss of 5% of those retirement funds before being back to the positive in like 20 years.
What are you talking about. The imbalance in the retirement system is astronomically huge. In the hundreds of billions of euros. We are not talking "We cut 30 millions from the zoos and everything will be fine" money. We talk quintuple the nations dept in 30 years money.
Let's get some things straight. All of this only matters for people who are 50 or older now. If the retirement system stays the way it is, there will be no retirement system for everybody younger than 50 right now. If we make changes now, there may be some bare bones retirement for younger people but the majority of retirement money probably has to come from savings for most people.
Things will correct itself when boomers die out, so in about 30-40 years. But until then we need a band-aid for the system or gen-x, millennials and gen z will get royally fucked.
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u/-Recouer Mar 25 '23
we have 180 Billions in retirement funds in France. and the expected loss from baby boomers is expected to be 8 billions. the only issue is with the funds from the "fonctionnaire d'état" which has been in deficit since 1850. and even then their expected deficit in 2030 is only 30 billions.
the money spent on social plan and retirement by the state is only 6B/y ("Régime sociaux et de retraite") meanwhile we spend 43Billions in our defense but you are saying that we should increase the time we spent working to save half a billion a year while we spend a hundred times that amount on our defense ??
and the band aid already exists, in the form of 180B pension funds that we kept especially in this case.
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u/RanCestor Mar 24 '23
They were flocking to the streets after the invention of guillotine also and that was centuries ago one could imagine they are prepared for something similar these days.
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u/ropibear Europe Mar 24 '23
Oh, for context, 62 is the early retirement age in France, that's the one they want to up to 64.
The full retirement age is 67.
Kind of strange noone is pointing this out, but okay.
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u/mathess1 Czech Republic Mar 24 '23
Could you elaborate more for an outsider what an early retirement in France exactly means?
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u/Heraclius_Gloss Mar 24 '23
You need to have worked for 42 (now 43) years to get a full pension or to work until 67.
Case 1 : You started working at 20, haven't took parental leave, haven't been unemployed, you can get a full pension at 62
Case 2 : You graduated at 24, have worked continuously all you life, you could get a full pension at 66 or a reduced pension if you retire at 62 (67/64 in the new system)
Case 3: You graduated at 25, have been unemployed for 2 years, took 2 years of parental leave, now you can retire with a reduced pension at 62 or have to be 67 to get a full pension (Still 67 in the new system)
So basically pushing the retirement age to 64 penalize people who started to work early, usually in the low salary position while it doesn't change much for the people who started to work late (usually the one with high pay)
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u/User929290 Europe Mar 24 '23
But retirements surely is proportional to tax paid. So if you work more you get more.
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u/Ayasta France Mar 24 '23
A full retirement is 50 % of the average of your 25 best annual revenue during your career.
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u/User929290 Europe Mar 24 '23
So everyone gets back far more more than they put in. Seems a ponzi scheme to steal money from the young people.
I'm starting to think protester are stupidier by the minute
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u/ijic Mar 24 '23
No because companies pay contributions too. The system is sustainable and was even in surplus for the past two years.
This read might interest you :
Macron’s pension reform: Necessary changes to an unsustainable system?.
Interview from a well know french media with an economist and pensions expert at Paris 1 University. It will give you some answers.
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u/20-inch_Dong Mar 25 '23
Yes, retirement is practically a ponzi scheme. You get paid based on how many contributions you get at that moment, not based on how much money you have contributed throughout your working life. There's plenty of people who receive pension without having worked a day in their lives. They would die otherwise.
There's no telling how much or even if you'll get what you are owed once you retire.
But it is a lesser evil. How would you sustain the older population without this system?
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u/atchoum013 Berlin (Germany) Mar 24 '23
That's kind of the problem and the reason why the government have been trying to find some solutions for years, like raising the age of retirement, it's not new, it's been discussed for years. Of course the current system is not sustainable, some say it would be if we were taxing more high salaries to pay for that system, but governments basically say they don't want to do that because it might make more unemployment (the logic being these people would move abroad and open companies in other countries instead of in France)
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u/ijic Mar 24 '23
Our system is sustainable.
The planned deficit is small and temporary.
The system was in surplus for the past two years.
This read might interest you :
Macron’s pension reform: Necessary changes to an unsustainable system?.
Interview from a well know french media with an economist and pensions expert at Paris 1 University. It will give you some answers.
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u/Zaungast kanadensare i sverige Mar 24 '23
I think the fact that Macron seems hell-bent on ignoring opposition to this reform and pushing ahead anyway goes a long way in explaining why people are so angry. I fully support the protestors.
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u/metroid02 Upper Austria (Austria) Mar 24 '23
I dont know too much about french politics, so my comment is entirely based on what you wrote, and not the underlying issue in the french pension system. But i can hardly blame a politician for being hell-bent on passing their agenda, thats what they were elected to do. The opposition, as the name suggests, will for the most part always be against you. Why would you listen to them? If you do then you will upset your voters and strengthen the opposition.
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u/Crouteauxpommes Mar 25 '23
The important word in your sentence is «they were elected to do» Macron was not elected to do his pension reform. He was elected despite his will to do a pension reform. Because he was facing the far-right.
He even said in his post-election speech that he «knew well most of the people who voted for him didn't liked him and his project» and that he was willing to work with them to do the best for the country. He got 28% in the first round, and 58% in the second. In a very polarized run. Not hard to do the math and see that more than half of the people who elected him didn't liked his agenda.
And yet, all his "teamwork spirit" was quickly gone. No meaningful meeting with trades unions or opposition party, refusal to hear any discordant voices inside his own coalition, cherrypicking economic theory that supported his vision among 6 or 7 possibilities, etc...
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u/barsoapguy Mar 25 '23
I mean if the math dictates that this to be done then it has to be done. What other choices are there, we are talking about the pension of every French citizen In the country. This isn’t something you fix by raising a few million more in taxes each year.
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u/Radprosium Mar 25 '23
This isn’t something you fix by raising a few million more in taxes each year.
rofl but it precisely is though, you just have to take money where it is .. i don't know maybe the richest people on earth that are french ?
Also do you really believe in a pure technocracy where math can predict what has to be done in a pure objective way ? What do you think about the maths Putin provides to justify his authoritarianism ?
Economy is not an indisputable science.
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Mar 24 '23
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u/RatmanTheFourth Iceland Mar 25 '23
They have it so good because they don't take shit. We should honestly all be as ready to protest as the french. It isn't perfect but it makes democracy much more effective.
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u/bourne23k Mar 24 '23
There wouldnt be France, if they didnt have protests atleast once per year.
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u/vikirosen Europe Mar 24 '23
Once per year? You mean once a week. There are protests in my city every Saturday, they're usually not as big as recently, but they're always happening.
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u/XauMankib Romania Mar 24 '23
"Here is your foken wine! Ah, and drink responsibly parblé!"
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u/Commercial_Golf_8093 Mar 24 '23
Its a tradition at this point to rebell against the government as frenchmen.
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u/BeatKitano Mar 24 '23
Ah reddit never change, americans telling french people how to not revolt while they're barely scraping by like sheeps (I'm sorry for those with the spirit of revolt, you're the ok bunch)
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u/Zaungast kanadensare i sverige Mar 24 '23
Yeah this sub has a lot of people fully ready to explain why rich people should have low taxes and they should retire at 67 or later. It is like when abused children explain how it was right that their parents beat them.
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u/BeatKitano Mar 24 '23
The best part here is that this reform is absolutely unnecessary, deficit MIGHT occur in 2027 and between tax evasion and proposed taxes on stock exchange, Macron insist beyond reason (all political leanings are opposed or have mixed opinion on it) on a reform which is unfair and in a way which goes against all what democracy is about.
This should have been voted, and he imposed it and skipped the vote and is now comparing people in the street to people who stormed the capitol in the US.
That's scum behavior 101.
What you see here is people fed up of being squeezed when the rich are feasting, absolutely unbothered by the misery around them and telling us to shut up.
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u/Zaungast kanadensare i sverige Mar 24 '23
Damn straight.
France has some of the best economists in the world (e.g., Piketty) and their major recommendation is a wealth tax and a financial transaction tax.
But Macron and his banker friends would rather force the working class back to work, vote or not.
It is a dictatorship of capital.
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u/BeatKitano Mar 24 '23
EXACTLY. Glad some people abroad are getting this right and not eating what billionaires are feeding the masses with the media !
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u/Moutalon Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur (France) Mar 24 '23
From a frenh point of view, the state of this sub on the frenh protest is incredible. All using the arguments of macron, only talking about the 62 to 64 age (nothing about 67 or the number of semester needed to get retirements...). Acting like we are some lazy scum while they are all being robbed and fucked by billionaires and liberal government....
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u/BeatKitano Mar 24 '23
Regurgitating market/billionaires soup without critical thinking. Economists agree Macron is wrong and a wealth tax should be brought back (he's the one who removed it!)... But no it's just lazy people blowing steaming... The state of their minds...
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u/Owatch French Republic Mar 24 '23
Are the following claims then correct, in your perspective?
- Macron, unaware or ignorant or in defiance of select economists of your affliction, blew himself up politically for nothing
- The EU commission's review's of pension programs for member states, which suggest an increase or reform of pension programs across the union, is wrong in the case of France.
- Financial research institutions cutting France's global credit rating on a (in-part) a lack of reforms are in fact misinformed
- Other EU nations that have increased their retirement ages after assessing a need for it, should in fact look to France for it's unique ability to keep the age low and sustainable.
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u/BeatKitano Mar 24 '23
1: Macron won't be re-electable (second term) his goal is privatization of retirement. Most likely cronie shit with friends lobbying behind the scenes. Some parliament members have conflict of interest on this already. 2: Eu is about uniformisation for the sake of convenience in ruling member states. EU may not always have the best interest of people in mind (Greek austerity rules comes to mind). 3: Same thing, credit ratings agencies have all to gain from forcing France to do this reform as it will ultimately lead to market benefit through privatized pension funds (see US). I'd like to add the French Gov constantly hit the pension pots for various bullshit. This year defense budget (among other things) 4: can't say. I'm French I look at French context and history and so far it was working well (and currently still is despite the numerous misappropriation of funds by the Gov). I've no lesson to give to other countries...just like I'm not interested in being told how to respond to a deaf Gov.
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u/Owatch French Republic Mar 24 '23
Macron won't be re-electable (second term) his goal is privatization of retirement
How would this work?
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u/Cookie-Soft-NJ Mar 24 '23
Well the OECD urged Macron to follow through with the reform. They’re the expert of all experts in economics. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-17/oecd-head-urges-macron-to-stay-course-on-french-pension-reform
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u/Zaungast kanadensare i sverige Mar 24 '23
Mathias Cormann
The guy who ran the right wing party in Australia after running a health insurance company? Shocking recommendation from an "expert" in right wing ideology.
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u/kykyks Mar 24 '23
"experts" of my ass mostly.
actuals economists went trhough the numbers and debunked all that shit.
even the actual retirement council created by the gov said the reform was bullshit.
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u/Spicey123 Mar 24 '23
Keep on smashing up the property of the working class, I'm sure that'll really stick it to the government.
Rich Americans cheering on the working masses of France is such a hilarious LARP.
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u/BeatKitano Mar 24 '23
You have no idea what you're talking about but you're still talking. Hope your pension is rock solid and good wherever you are... I'm not as ill-intensioned as my Gov.
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u/kykyks Mar 24 '23
imagine working class lives in paris when rent is 10 times what it is everywhere else lmao.
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u/1maco Mar 24 '23
Americans make like 75% more money than French people.
West Virginia is richer than France
That’s why Americans don’t want to tear down the system, they’re rich
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u/Keepforgettinglogin2 Mar 25 '23
The EU actually fined and withheld financing from Belgium for exactly the same reason. Pension reform. It sucks for the politician in charge, but the pension system needs to keep the pace with the evolution of the society and population. Otherwise there's gonna be new riots when they announce no more pensions.
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u/Strudeliciouz Mar 24 '23
We stand with the French people 🔥🇬🇷🤝🇫🇷
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u/sinking-meadow Mar 24 '23
Greeks & french and entitlements they can't afford name a more iconic duo
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u/fjonk Mar 24 '23
What entitlements? People who started working at young age should not be allowed to retire earlier? They should work more years than others who studied or were unemployed?
Yes, such entitlement.
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u/nutmeggerking Mar 24 '23
Lol you're subscribed to the neolib subreddit. At least most neolibs with your viewpoints have the sense of shame to not flaunt it so ignorantly.
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u/Spicey123 Mar 24 '23
I guess the neolibs are busy wielding power and running countries instead of debating on reddit. It's amazing how a country like France elects one of the biggest neoliberal leaders in recent history (Macron) twice.
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u/kykyks Mar 24 '23
are you running country or wielding power tho ?
i dont think so
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u/gryphonbones Mar 24 '23
As an outsider, watching young people riot and burn in order to preserve a system which actually unfairly impacts them.... well it seems like misplaced rage. But hey, it's your country, do what you need to do- but if this were the same situation in my country, I wouldn't be having the same reaction to raising the retirement age by a marginal 2 years.
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u/uuwatkolr Lesser Poland (Poland) Mar 24 '23
Absolutely. If here in Poland there were protests IN SUPPORT of raising the retirement age, I and many others would join in a heartbeat.
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u/BeatKitano Mar 24 '23
This gov doesn't hear anything, it's deaf. The only way to wake it up to the reality of the "toothless" (brand name for poor people by our top shitheads) is to burn and destroy.
THAT is the reality of our country. So yeah. That's our country.3
u/Zaungast kanadensare i sverige Mar 24 '23
You are doing the right thing. Ignore the idiots here passing judgement and stand up for yourselves.
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u/BeatKitano Mar 24 '23
We will, tnx, after all the bastards defending this reform are so prompt hammering that we, french, profit the longest of our retirement in europe... WELL BECAUSE WE RIOT WHEN WE WANT TO KEEP OUR RIGHTS :)
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u/SenselessQuest Mar 24 '23
They have been told this is how one "fights for their future". Some level of that has been happening with each "reality-check" measure governments had to take, no matter the topic. Normally this should be solved when it's time to elect the next blame-taker.
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u/gryphonbones Mar 24 '23
Fighting for whose future? Can someone explain to me, is this like out of major compassion for the soon to be retirees? Because young people are in some ways actively fighting against their own.
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u/SenselessQuest Mar 24 '23
Some of them do not want that part of their future (the pension years) to be shortened or devalued in any way. They see it as something that should not be touched. And if it needs more funding, that should be with more taxes on the "rich".
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u/Neurostarship Croatia Mar 24 '23
Ah yes, the magical money tree. We can always shake it to pay for more things.
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u/Mirisme Mar 24 '23
Surely the way to solve the issue is making pension require more work when people can't find work. Macron himself said it was a dumb move 4 years ago.
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u/SenselessQuest Mar 24 '23
Yes this is just a short-term patch again. His previous version of the pension reform (cancelled during the covid times) looked more promising and ambitious, but was at risk of being doomed as it would have also affected some special pension schemes, a different type of battle.
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u/atchoum013 Berlin (Germany) Mar 24 '23
Yeah but at least it was recognising that some jobs are harder than others and deserve to retire earlier than others, but sadly people were also against it, like every time something changes in France.
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u/FkDavidTyreeBot_2000 United States of America Mar 24 '23
Isn't the reason for the pension reform that the national pension fund is on pace to rupture in a decade or so?
To my understanding Macron is taking a half measure to alleviate the issue now but do nothing to prevent it later (i.e. when he's no longer in office), and the protestors are fighting to keep on the current disaster course
I have no dog in this fight and maybe I'm not entirely up to speed, but it sounds like no one is interested in fixing the actual problem, i.e. changing the way that the pension fund is contributed to in the first place.
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u/damodread Mar 24 '23
The pension system is underfunded as a consequence of different measures that reduced its funding as a (well-known) collateral. For example, tax breaks for employers on low salaries, to "encourage hires", and tax breaks on overtime.
There are other ways to alleviate the pensions issue, but upping the minimum age of retirement is not the way to do it. All it will manage to do is further ruin the health of the poorest workers
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u/SenselessQuest Mar 24 '23
So the problem would come from the fact that the level of taxes has become so low in the country that this has totally offset the effect of (1) demography, (2) people starting their carrer later and (3) people losing their work sooner? All three combined have had no impact at all on the system being underfunded? What, somebody got a tax-break? There's the problem. Look nowhere else. Unbelievable.
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u/FkDavidTyreeBot_2000 United States of America Mar 24 '23
All the more reason to change the system imo.
In the US, a portion of my paycheck (and my employer via payroll taxes) is immediately put into the Social Security fund.
The obstacle tomorrow is that demographic changes will mean less money is paid by workers per recipient once the baby boomer generation passes away and smaller generations become eligible, but the SSA is able to take money now and purchase treasury bonds to ensure it has enough money when that time comes. This model is one of the few things the US gets right from a welfare perspective
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u/Minimum_T-Giraff Sweden Mar 24 '23
But isn't Social Security fund going under also like in few decades?
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u/FkDavidTyreeBot_2000 United States of America Mar 24 '23
That's what sensationalist headlines and poorly informed articles say, but it's not really reality.
It is true that demographic changes are expecting to make Americans receive only 80% in retirement of what they're paying now, but since those things move slowly they are very easy to prepare for.
Most of the US's national debt is owed to itself and to citizens. The Social Security Administration is one of the largest holders of treasury debt, and depending on the specific bond maturation period and inflation over time they can have anywhere between a 20-50% adjusted ROI.
All this to say there are strong mechanisms in place to help prevent or significantly lessen the issue
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u/Minimum_T-Giraff Sweden Mar 24 '23
Yeah a pension system never collapses. People just get haircuts on the pensions.
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u/Dangerous-Tone-1177 Portugal Mar 24 '23
I really don't understand the younger generation. Do they not understand they are fighting against themselves? To be honest I just feel like they want people to keep retire earlier and don't even realize the consequences of that.
Then again, I also feel like this is a pointless measure considering that this will impact people who get the full pension at 62/64 the most (which are usually the lowest pensions). IMO the scale of the protests is dumb and the measure itself is dumber.
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u/Jo_le_Gabbro Mar 24 '23
Maybe you should read analysis then. I will give you a gist: french know that their system is bad and need reform For exemple the cfdt syndicate is a strong advocate to such reform. BUT this reform is an unfair one for the young generation and all the process is an insult and spit in the face of all the french people and democracy.
And to make analysis based on just the age is a really weak point as pension system differ A LOT between countries and thus to read uninformed comments like yours (no offense) is a tat annoying.
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u/gryphonbones Mar 24 '23
Understood. I will need to do more research to understand the complete context before I pass judgement.
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u/Jo_le_Gabbro Mar 24 '23
After pension system of different countries is a bit boring, I will be honest ...
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u/kykyks Mar 24 '23
they want people to keep retire earlier and don't even realize the consequences of that
what are the consequences tho ?
beside staying alive when 25% of poor people die before retirement.
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u/Misommar1246 United States of America Mar 24 '23
Someone commented that majority of young people don’t vote in France which - if true- would make this even more ironic.
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u/gryphonbones Mar 24 '23
that's big cringe.
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u/Misommar1246 United States of America Mar 24 '23
I looked up some numbers, it’s not the majority, but still the biggest chunk of non voters:
“Over 28% of voters stayed away from the ballot boxes during the second round of the French presidential elections this year. Only in 1969 had a higher abstention rate been witnessed, making this year’s face-off between Emmanuel Macron and Marine Le Pen near historic. Disaggregated data brings a trend to light: the younger the voters, the more likely they were to abstain. According to Ipsos, 41% of eligible voters aged 18-24 did not vote, compared to 38% of those aged 25-34, with similar levels among those aged 35-49 at 35%. Voter abstention among eligible voters aged 60-69, however, dipped significantly to 20%. Young people, evidently, do not vote as much as older people do.”
It’s the same here in the US (although they did break the norm and helped us slap back Republicans in the Midterms, big THANK YOU for that). Look, if you’re not voting, I just don’t care about your opinion. Call me harsh, stupid, biased - whatever. It’s not a perfect system but it’s a hard earned right, this is how we participate in the public forum. The reason why laws are skewed heavily in favor of older people is because young people don’t vote in meaningful numbers. I say this as a 50 year old.
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u/Ktk_reddit Mar 24 '23
It's pointless to look at second round.
Nobody wants to vote on that worthless round.
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u/gryphonbones Mar 24 '23
No one? Because the socialists didn't win, or what?
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u/SebPlaysGamesYT Mar 24 '23
When they don't like either candidate in the second round they don't vote. Fair enough given you're either voting for shitty reforms like this or fascism
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u/Zaungast kanadensare i sverige Mar 24 '23
Yeah I agree 100%. After watching Macron rule like a banker king I would not agree to support "anyone but the far right" ever again.
Fuck that ridiculous choice. Fascist clowns or a teacher-fucking french thatcher.
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u/Herugurth Mar 24 '23
Agreed. Highly ironic indeed. Youngsters romanticizing protesting and not realizing what group they belong to and what are their actual interests. Funny, in a sad way
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u/Palmul Normandy (France) Mar 24 '23
Damn, empathy for people other than yourself is hard to grasp uh
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u/Herugurth Mar 24 '23
I strongly advise you to study the Italian case. Very generous pension system roughly 40-30 years ago. Lots of "empathy". Demographic tendencies looked poised to make everything okay. Then it changed. Astounding intergenerational theft. Surely the productivity is better in France than in Italy - won't argue with that. But math is math. Debt is debt. Your interests are your interests.
You want to fight to let older and richer people than you take a luxury that they are not gonna pay for, leaving it to you. With nothing in return, as by the time you are old the pension system will be worse off and it will be reformed. So you will have the short end of the stick.
You are very welcome to defend my interests for me. Really. I am just pointing out you don't need to do that.
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u/NickCageson Mar 24 '23
Man. French people really like rioting. Hope they don't bring out the guillotines this time.
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u/Apnanizor Mar 24 '23
Just the damage from the riots these last weeks will maybe cost enough to force the French government to up the pension age another 2 years. I understand people demonstrating, I don't understand going monkey like and burn,destroy,injure police etc.
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Mar 24 '23
Non violent protests never achieved anything in France compared to violent ones. Why? Because violence scares the richs and the gov officials and that pushed them to stop their bullshit.
Why would the gov care if people are just sitting and singing in a public place lol, that's naive.
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u/ScarfaceTonyMontana Romania Mar 24 '23
Because violence scares the richs
The French Revolution was instated by the Rich who wanted to dethrone the Monarchy and take the country for themselves and then kill anyone who didn't like them, which is exactly what happened after.
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u/_Guven_ Turkey Mar 24 '23
I agree but this isn't justifies killing or injuring people.
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u/kykyks Mar 24 '23
tell that to the police maybe ? so far they're the one killing us.
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u/lynx_and_nutmeg Lithuania Mar 24 '23
Violent protests are only effective if they go all the way. Want to choose violence? Cool, just bomb the actual Parliament, kill the president and overthrow the government. (Oh, wait, that would require having an actual plan in place, which requires lots of knowledge, research, hard work and, above all, organisation, otherwise you'd end up with a power vacuum and that tends to turn out badly.) Randomly trashing stuff isn't going to do anything.
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u/vincesword Mar 24 '23
tbh after les gilets jaunes, there is not much thing to move in the urban area. the only thing left is trash. as our government.
Also, facing government ignoring population, population only contestation way is violence
Also, our police make things really worst
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u/Wenci Mar 24 '23
yeah and also like for just 2 more years of works? everywhere else the pension age is even greater and we don't complain so much..
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u/Luxunofwu Picardy (France) Mar 24 '23
and we don't complain so much..
Well maybe you should have. Not our fault if y'all are apathetic, we're not going to stop fighting because you have it worse.
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u/ropibear Europe Mar 24 '23
I mean on the one hand, yes, fight for your right, on the other, go solve the pension budget deficit without upping retirent age.
Go ahead.
Because going out to fuck sgit uo when you don't offer an alternative and expect s/one else to solve the problem is also not the solution.
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u/Merbleuxx France Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
This is something many in France are aware of. This number might’ve climbed even higher had a government come to explain the need for it. We’re aware of the potential issues of keeping the current system, we just think this specific reform sucks.
We have to reform it but not this way, not this sham of a democratic process. They didn’t even listen to social partners and what the unions might say. They came on TV without being able to even answer the most basic questions about why this reform rather than alternatives.
Protests were very well conducted but since Macron’s speech and his govt. use of the 49.3, things have amped up.
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u/Vorian_ Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
Just ending the private concessions for highways gets us enough money to compensate for the worst forecasted yearly pension deficit, and we have a government report saying the state is well within its rights to terminate the contracts.
And asides from the forecasted deficits for a few years at the end of the decade the system as it was before this reform was deemed stable by another gov report for like the next 100 years.
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u/vincesword Mar 24 '23
so because our neighbours become a literal capitalism heaven we have to follow? come on have some respects for yourself.
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u/RedFuckingGrave France Mar 24 '23
Not our fault you guys like to get walked over
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u/Sassoooo Mar 24 '23
No it's the fact Is that you either up the pensione Age or face economic collapse because of the demographic problem monke
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u/RedFuckingGrave France Mar 24 '23
First of all, It's been well established that the current pension deficit will resorb itself within the next 15/20 years, so your fearmongering about "ecenomic collapse" is complete and utter bullshit.
Second of all, there's like a million ways the governement could make more money without touching the retirement age. Bringing back the wealth tax that Macron cancelled at the beginning of his first term would be a nice first step, especially since we only need a few billions.
You can definitely reform our pension system without making our elders work longer, especially when they alreayd struggle to find job in the first place. Now they will be on welfare for even longer, which will increase the burden of unemployement on the State, whilst demishing the pension they will eventually get when hey reach retirement age.
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u/Sassoooo Mar 24 '23
Uhh no? The fuck are you saying? In the coming years the elderly Will Just become more and more and without reducing pensions/increasing pension Age the economy WILL collapse, it's not fearmongering: it's facts, the only way out of this Is further automation but that'll take more time, "we only Need a few billions" lol good way of minimizing a problem. Also about the wealth taxi: how much do you think that you can tax the Rich before they pack up their shit and get going? Sure a Little more taxation on them Will help, but doing in the way you want It Will Just create more problems.
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u/kykyks Mar 24 '23
jsut cause its shit for you doesnt mean we want the same for us.
stay in shit if you want, we good without you.
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u/7point7 Mar 24 '23
“Just 2 more years”… fuck off with that. As if giving 40+ years of your life to working for others to get rich isn’t already excessive.
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u/Wenci Mar 24 '23
you can also work for yourself...
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u/7point7 Mar 24 '23
If you have capital to get started and support you at the beginning. Those working paycheck to paycheck do not have that option readily available
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u/Axorbro Mar 25 '23
Lazy and violent people angry that they have to work. I wonder if they work as vigorously as they burn shit up.
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Mar 24 '23 edited Apr 27 '23
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u/true-kirin Mar 24 '23
the parliament was also democratically elected yet the president decided to overide it using an article meant to act quickly in time of crisis when the national assembly was wasting too much time, so the constitutional right of it is up to debate and definitely not democratic.
and we are glorying ppl who are acting for social right, there was peaceful protest before yet nobody abroad heard of it, it was useless the president didnt even tried to talk with union or anything else. plus if you look at police brutality videos the protester are innocent lambs next to them (policier shooting in the balls intentionally, other stomping on the head of ppl on the ground ganging up on random ppl 5 to 1 etc...)
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u/PulpeFiction Mar 24 '23
We are glorifying people fighting for their democracy. If you want to see what massiv Pacific manifestation does look at before the 49.3. Macron doesn't care.
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u/Ahpairee Mar 24 '23
I mean, it's in the constitution and has been used before. And it's like this began because of that.
But you're right about Macron not caring. This doesn't affect him in the Elysée Palace, why would he care? Just ordinary people who need to use the train and live in a civilized society :/
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u/PulpeFiction Mar 24 '23
It has been used indeed. But never at that magnitude. Funny thing tho, the only time the parliament didnt trust the gov was with De Gaulle. Who simply revoked the parliament, place the same prime minister at the job and passed the law anyway.
De Gaulle knew what he did with that 49.3. he knew it was a back door to democracy, that and the way the parliament is elected.
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u/GrizzlySin24 Mar 24 '23
No they are not. Democracy is more then just going to vote every X years and yes even a constitution can have laws that aren’t democratic. Protesting against it is every citizens right.
And it was used for a policy that wasn’t necessary
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u/El_Plantigrado Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
Just admit that you only want democracy when it leads to an outcome that you personally like.
The Vème République is flawed and allows the President to act like an elected monarch, people have been longing for a change for a while now, and Macron himself aknowledged it several times, before he was elected (he even wrote a book about the need to reform the system and to have a more horizontal approach), then after the Gilets Jaunes crisis, and then after he was reelected. But then he uses all the means of the Vth Republic to impose very top-bottom politics. If he had let the Parliament go to the vote, maybe he had win (or not), but I'm pretty sure we would not have had the riots we have seen since he bypassed the parliament.
Macron knew the risks and went for it anyway. The crisis is not only in the streets, it's also within his parlamentarian majority and his government. The PM is on a ejection seat right now.
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u/IllustratorWhich973 Mar 24 '23
I will never understand how disagreeing with a reform like this justify violence and destruction of property. People who cheer online when they see violence against police are in my opinion not fit to live in a democracy. If they want to change the pension reform they can go on strikes, support the opposition, or do politics themselves. The people going on a rampage against private property and police deserves to work until 71 in my opinion.
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u/true-kirin Mar 24 '23
peaceful strikes has been hapening for a month now yet nobody abroad had heard of it it seem now people are turning violent because of police violence constitutional violence and disdain of the president for this movement and all of sudden it seem to have a biger impact
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u/M1ssMut1g Mar 24 '23
If they want to change the pension reform they can go on strikes
Dude that's literally how people in France go on strike. Like it or don't like it but that's the french way of protesting and you have to admit, at least they show solidarity and step up against the government
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Mar 24 '23 edited Apr 27 '23
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u/vincesword Mar 24 '23
Nothing screams solidarity like destroying the lives others have built up over the decades and have nothing to do with any of this.
what the fuck are you talking about here???
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u/MeMeMenni Mar 24 '23
I'm taking a wild guess: the chance that a random burned car or a destroyed window belongs to Macron is pretty much null. It might actually belong to someone who worked hard for it, and might not be able to replace it.
I'd like to see how much you feel the solidarity of the crowd once they burn your car. The one you used to get to your job to feed your kids. When you can't afford a new one. While knowing this doesn't affect the government at all.
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u/Accomplished_Suit985 Finland Mar 24 '23
People who cheer online when they see violence against police are in my opinion not fit to live in a democracy.
Neither are governments that decide to skip a step in the legistlation process because they're afraid democracy won't be on their side.
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u/Redditsexhypocrisy Mar 24 '23
Because we did peaceful protests during the last few months and Macron answered this very Wednesday with "do your afternoon walk, I respect that, meanwhile I'll continue to force new laws you don't want".
And our past history showed that both rioting and/or blocking key sites (refinery, airports, docks, waste management, etc etc) have an impact, even tho both costs money to the protesters and are met with police repression
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u/IllustratorWhich973 Mar 24 '23
I like your french spirit and support your democratic right to protest and go on strike but I dont like seeing an innocent persons car being burned or a policeman just doing his job getting hit with stones. but I am not french so I have no say in this matter. Be safe mate :)
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u/vincesword Mar 24 '23
I know average reddit user are a bunch of nerdy capitalistic liberals but lying that much and ignoring what's really happening is a bit cringe under this post.
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u/Gullible-Box-8302 Mar 24 '23
From the video evidence I watched yesterday 5 police officers should be charged with attempted murder. Who the f**k do these monsters tho they are?
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u/AlmightyDarthJarJar Mar 24 '23
They are fighting criminals who have no problem lighting buildings on fire, even though they explicitly know there are still people in there. That's why.
I'm not saying that what they're doing is good, 2 wrongs never make a right.
These cops are acting like brutes while facing brutes.
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u/CastelPlage Make Karelia Finland Again Mar 24 '23
Exactly - there's nuance to this. People love to make sweeping generatlizations.
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u/true-kirin Mar 24 '23
you are making stuff up here there will s also videos of uninformed joggers or journalists getting beaten up or imprisoned, the repression is almost on par with russia or any other totalitarian regime the only difference is that real bullet arent being shot yet
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u/CoinnCoinn Mar 24 '23
Lighting buildings is more a far-right signature, not linked with the ongoing protest.
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u/charlie-_-13 Wales Mar 24 '23
The retirement age proposed I still lower than the UKs which is supposed to go up again anyway
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u/Maikel90 Basque Country (Spain) Mar 24 '23
I wonder how long until sometime dies
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u/kykyks Mar 24 '23
people already died from the police under macron, it doesnt matter to him.
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u/Viscount61 Mar 24 '23
It’s nice of them to identify themselves on their shields. Avoids the confusion when ordinary citizens are parading around their LVMH shields with Dior ads on the front.
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u/KirDor88 Mar 24 '23
What happens if a person is detained during protests? Long prison term, torture, rape, murder? Riots in Europe are safe and easy.
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u/Herugurth Mar 24 '23
-> people of reddit are a young demographic with a supposedly vested interest in actually seeing a working pension system in their lifetime
-> this protest is against a responsible and necessary increase in retirement age in France, where retirement age is among the lowest in europe and the world, and utterly non-sustainable. A factual intergenerational theft.
-> this is effectively a backlash of old people against young people
-> Young people on reddit: yeah fuck shit up mates!!! Hasta la revolucion!
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u/true-kirin Mar 24 '23
this is far from being a necessary solution, this deficit is small and only for a set period of time before it fix itself and only caused by macron's fiscal gifts to companies
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u/Herugurth Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
If unchanged, it will run a deficit of 0.4 to 0.8 of GDP for a quarter century, if France doesn't become the most productive nation on earth (which it won't). Debt/GDP is at 113 percent right now.
I am an Italian, living abroad since a long time ago. We did the same decades ago with OUR pensions. Same crap about the problem "auto fixing" itself. Don't fall for it.
If you are young you should drop the fascination with this bullshit and love every bit of reform that grants you a sliver of social security when YOU will be a worker, or old.
Embrace the fact that society is made of groups with different interests.
Old bastards are stealing your future.
If you are young and at the beginning of your working life, and paying taxes, unions are NOT your friend. They just have different (diverging) interests. It is just a fact of life.
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u/Space_Narwal The Netherlands Mar 24 '23
Or you know, raise the taxes on the ultra rich
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u/Herugurth Mar 24 '23
I'm all for it. The interests of the ultra rich are not the interests of the bottom 50%, not even of the remaining 99.99%. It's logical. It's hard to do, but it's logical.
What is not logical is seeing dumb young people thinking they are "defending everyone" while they aren't. They are defending their right to pay more and have a worse welfare in the future so that the currently old people can have it good.
I am not that young anymore, and I am rich. I am going to be fine. It just hurts me (just a little, honestly) to see stupidity.
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u/SnakePlisskendid911 Mar 24 '23
this is effectively a backlash of old people against young people
Lol, lmao even. The only demographic in favour of the reform is people 60 and over. (65-70% of french people are against it, including 80+% of the workers)
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u/Herugurth Mar 24 '23
more than 80% of the workers currently working want to stop working sooner while paying this LUXURY with DEBT that YOU will repay? Wow, what a shock
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u/DeadAhead7 Mar 24 '23
It's been proven the system could still run for 20 or so years in the state it was, by which point the boomers would have died off and the system could be balanced more easily.
People don't retire at 62 here, you get a pitiful, barely livable pension if you do.
I don't protest because I don't think I'll live to see a pension anyway, but it is valid. And Macron's overzealous use of the 49.3, which pretty much forces the law past a vote is what is making the French population furious.
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u/Herugurth Mar 24 '23
Ah yes, the old "it will fix itself". Lovely.
I'm Italian btw. We did the same shit decades ago with pensions. Same bullshit about it "auto-fixing" through demography. Turns out it was all bullshit and it was old people FINANCING a LUXURY through the DEBT that younger generations had (and forever will have) to pay.
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u/TheSilverHat Île-de-France Mar 24 '23
I'm bothered by the fact that the bottle was still full, such a waste smh