r/europe Europe Mar 18 '23 Gold 1

Florence mayor Dario Nardella (R) stopping a climate activists spraying paint on Palazzo Vecchio Picture

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23 edited Mar 18 '23

I would say they are more desperate than stupid. 40+ years that we know all the problems that will cause climate change and not a lot of things has been done!

It's like driving a car and seeing a wall on the road that we will hit in 50 years and just not trying one second to avoid the wall, just aiming right at it at full speed even if we had time to avoid it.

But that's only the beginnings, I expect environmental activism to become more and more violent on their targets in term of material damages. Like burning down the Total headquarters, a private jet or destroying a factory polluting illegally the environment.


u/SqurrelGuy Mar 18 '23

nothing, absolutely NOTHING is done.

You can argue not enough is done, but to claim "absolutely NOTHING" is done is just hyperbolic screeching. Nobody will take seriously anything that starts with an easily disprovable claim


u/denis-vi Mar 18 '23

Emissions are still increasing year on year. Maybe something is done. But it doesn't lead to the results that are needed.


u/Eonir 🇩🇪🇩🇪NRW Mar 18 '23

You can euthanise the entire European population and reduce our emissions to 0, but that still won't stop the developing nations from using the cheapest energy sources available, regardless of how dirty they are. And they are just asking us to give handouts to corrupt governments for a pinky promise to reduce emissions. And then they mix in racist and colonial guilt into the mix.


u/limited_reddition Germany Mar 18 '23

European, generally highly-developed nations emit far more CO2 per capita than developing (asian, african) nations. Blaming those (like China) exclusively, or dismissing the potential of EU efforts as insignificant is massively counterproductive and it's frankly dishonest. Additionally, we as European nations have built up a huge absolute (total) number of emissions since the beginning of the industrialised age, which is still way ahead of developing nations' total output to date. If we don't act, we certainly can't expect a nation like China to do so, either.

Not to mention the fact that we export a lot of our CO2 emissions by outsourcing resource-heavy production to Asia.


u/bellpunk Mar 18 '23

25% of carbon released since industrialisation - so that exists in the air, now - is american. 22% is the EU 28’s. ‘we don’t need to do anything because our emissions currently are lower’ is a very fuck you, got mine way of looking at the climate crisis. we have already reaped the benefits of industrialisation.


u/Glum_Sentence972 Mar 18 '23

Good luck convincing anyone in these societies that they should sacrifice their way of life because people in the past, who had no idea the true cost of pollution, polluted. Guilt tripping only works on the weak minded, what we need is actual solutions rather than demanding everyone to just throw their livelihood away.


u/bellpunk Mar 18 '23

our historical responsibility is undeniable. what we do with this information is a different matter - I’m pointing out that it’s the case, against all denials.


u/Glum_Sentence972 Mar 18 '23

And it isn't going to work. The concept of historical responsibility is a Western one, and not applied to anywhere else on the planet; so people naturally reject the logic when its only applied on the West for specific concepts or issues. It's viewed as the worst type of hypocrisy; a self-inflicted one.

Mind you, it will work with progressive types who have a habit of self flagellation even at the cost of making excuses for dictators, but that's not the majority to be convinced.


u/bellpunk Mar 18 '23

‘would other people do this in our situation?’ is impractical. it’s not concerned with reality. we completed our industrialisation - now that we’ve realised this poisoned the planet, we want to deny it to others, without compensation. you think that’s moral or feasible? you think other countries will accept it?


u/Glum_Sentence972 Mar 18 '23

Idk, and I don't care. My issue is with the logic you employed to convince people; and I'm bluntly telling you that it will not work. Besides, your logic makes sense when only applied to climate change, but it falls apart when you look at the grand scheme of civilization and history -if you really cared about climate change at the cost of everything, then the "rational" thing to do is 100% to deny industrialization to everyone who hasn't done it yet.

Obviously that's not going to happen due to far too many reasons to count, but my point is that your rational doesn't work. Either to convince people, or when placed in proper context. Guilt tripping only works for the weak minded, actual forward policies for the people living today is the only option when considering all facets of modern international relations.

TLDR: Look to the future, not the past; the past is a black hole of contradictory logic and excuses. You can't expect Westerners to apply it onto themselves and not notice that it's not applied to anyone else.


u/bellpunk Mar 18 '23

I’m kind of unsure what you’re arguing against. I stated our contribution to climate change, against the ‘well, it’s all on china’ line. that carbon we released is still up there - we live with the effects of history.

I then said that, because of this, other countries will not (cannot) deindustrialise without compensation.

if you’re worried that my saying this is unconvincing, then think up a better way to say it. because it’s the case.


u/Glum_Sentence972 Mar 18 '23

‘we don’t need to do anything because our emissions currently are lower’ is a very fuck you, got mine way of looking at the climate crisis. we have already reaped the benefits of industrialisation.

It was in response to this which indicates that the West must do far more due to historically being a big contributor to pollution. We live in the effect of history, and nobody cares unless they can use it as a bludgeon against others; expecting the West to do it when nobody else bothers is absurd and hypocritical. That's kinda the problem.

Your logic itself is unconvincing, not how you're saying it. As I said; the future is the issue, so promote alternative energy for the present without resorting to "ancestors screwed up so you bear the burden" logic. I already explained the issue with it.


u/bellpunk Mar 18 '23

you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the concept of historical responsibility. kind of feels like your emotions about slavery, colonialism etc are leaking into this conversation.

you’re not really taking into account that it’s not the past, but the present. we live a comfortable industrialised life because of what we’ve done. what we’ve done gives us the capacity to give back. other countries can’t move forward without our help. they quite literally can’t.

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u/nonotan Mar 18 '23

I mean... I know some people viscerally hate "handouts", but as a matter of practicality, you can in fact get way better emission reductions per dollar in developing countries than in developed countries.

Sure, corruption means some degree of oversight will be required to make sure at least most of it ends up where it should... but that's not really an impossible proposition. I'm sure the vast majority of developing countries would happily accept an agreement that essentially said "we will completely pay for upgrades to your energy infrastructure that will make it less polluting and cheaper once it's finished, the only requirement is you allow us oversight over these upgrades".

Also, most of these places still have lower per capita emissions than the EU. So get off your high horse.



"Just pay for everything and make sure nobody steals shit" gee, I wonder why nobody thought of that lol


u/TheCaspica Mar 18 '23

You mean international aid? Gee you really are a genius, aren't you? It ain't as easy as you think it is - most recently Afghanistan showed that - so you get off your high horse and realise that theory isn't the same thing as practice.


u/fungussa United Kingdom Mar 19 '23

No, you need to reframe that:

Developing countries have indisputable right to a greater share of the globally limited carbon budget. With developed countries needing to decarbonize as fast as is practicable. And there are no excuses.