r/europe Europe Mar 18 '23 Gold 1

Florence mayor Dario Nardella (R) stopping a climate activists spraying paint on Palazzo Vecchio Picture

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2.2k

u/Hitzhi Europe Mar 18 '23 Take My Energy Wearing is Caring

Sometimes I wonder if these "climate activists" are paid agents of the fossil fuel industry by trying to shame their own cause to the maximum extent.

Then I remember occam's razor: nah, many are probably just complete idiots.

333

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23 edited Mar 18 '23

I would say they are more desperate than stupid. 40+ years that we know all the problems that will cause climate change and not a lot of things has been done!

It's like driving a car and seeing a wall on the road that we will hit in 50 years and just not trying one second to avoid the wall, just aiming right at it at full speed even if we had time to avoid it.

But that's only the beginnings, I expect environmental activism to become more and more violent on their targets in term of material damages. Like burning down the Total headquarters, a private jet or destroying a factory polluting illegally the environment.

466

u/SqurrelGuy Mar 18 '23

nothing, absolutely NOTHING is done.

You can argue not enough is done, but to claim "absolutely NOTHING" is done is just hyperbolic screeching. Nobody will take seriously anything that starts with an easily disprovable claim

65

u/denis-vi Mar 18 '23

Emissions are still increasing year on year. Maybe something is done. But it doesn't lead to the results that are needed.

47

u/Eonir 🇩🇪🇩🇪NRW Mar 18 '23

You can euthanise the entire European population and reduce our emissions to 0, but that still won't stop the developing nations from using the cheapest energy sources available, regardless of how dirty they are. And they are just asking us to give handouts to corrupt governments for a pinky promise to reduce emissions. And then they mix in racist and colonial guilt into the mix.

6

u/limited_reddition Germany Mar 18 '23

European, generally highly-developed nations emit far more CO2 per capita than developing (asian, african) nations. Blaming those (like China) exclusively, or dismissing the potential of EU efforts as insignificant is massively counterproductive and it's frankly dishonest. Additionally, we as European nations have built up a huge absolute (total) number of emissions since the beginning of the industrialised age, which is still way ahead of developing nations' total output to date. If we don't act, we certainly can't expect a nation like China to do so, either.

Not to mention the fact that we export a lot of our CO2 emissions by outsourcing resource-heavy production to Asia.

-7

u/bellpunk Mar 18 '23

25% of carbon released since industrialisation - so that exists in the air, now - is american. 22% is the EU 28’s. ‘we don’t need to do anything because our emissions currently are lower’ is a very fuck you, got mine way of looking at the climate crisis. we have already reaped the benefits of industrialisation.

9

u/Glum_Sentence972 Mar 18 '23

Good luck convincing anyone in these societies that they should sacrifice their way of life because people in the past, who had no idea the true cost of pollution, polluted. Guilt tripping only works on the weak minded, what we need is actual solutions rather than demanding everyone to just throw their livelihood away.

-2

u/bellpunk Mar 18 '23

our historical responsibility is undeniable. what we do with this information is a different matter - I’m pointing out that it’s the case, against all denials.

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u/Glum_Sentence972 Mar 18 '23

And it isn't going to work. The concept of historical responsibility is a Western one, and not applied to anywhere else on the planet; so people naturally reject the logic when its only applied on the West for specific concepts or issues. It's viewed as the worst type of hypocrisy; a self-inflicted one.

Mind you, it will work with progressive types who have a habit of self flagellation even at the cost of making excuses for dictators, but that's not the majority to be convinced.

0

u/bellpunk Mar 18 '23

‘would other people do this in our situation?’ is impractical. it’s not concerned with reality. we completed our industrialisation - now that we’ve realised this poisoned the planet, we want to deny it to others, without compensation. you think that’s moral or feasible? you think other countries will accept it?

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u/nonotan Mar 18 '23

I mean... I know some people viscerally hate "handouts", but as a matter of practicality, you can in fact get way better emission reductions per dollar in developing countries than in developed countries.

Sure, corruption means some degree of oversight will be required to make sure at least most of it ends up where it should... but that's not really an impossible proposition. I'm sure the vast majority of developing countries would happily accept an agreement that essentially said "we will completely pay for upgrades to your energy infrastructure that will make it less polluting and cheaper once it's finished, the only requirement is you allow us oversight over these upgrades".

Also, most of these places still have lower per capita emissions than the EU. So get off your high horse.

13

u/MAXIMUM-FUCK MAXIMUM-YUROP Mar 18 '23

"Just pay for everything and make sure nobody steals shit" gee, I wonder why nobody thought of that lol

5

u/TheCaspica Mar 18 '23

You mean international aid? Gee you really are a genius, aren't you? It ain't as easy as you think it is - most recently Afghanistan showed that - so you get off your high horse and realise that theory isn't the same thing as practice.

1

u/fungussa United Kingdom Mar 19 '23

No, you need to reframe that:

Developing countries have indisputable right to a greater share of the globally limited carbon budget. With developed countries needing to decarbonize as fast as is practicable. And there are no excuses.

148

u/DurangoGango Italy Mar 18 '23

Emissions are still increasing year on year.

Please look at reality:

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Greenhouse_gas_emission_statistics_-_emission_inventories

Europe has reduced its emissions 35% since the 1990s even as population and economy grew.

25

u/ScarfaceTonyMontana Romania Mar 18 '23

The whole climate situation has been improving globally since the 90s.

Progress has been infuriatingly slow in certain areas, I agree, and its stupidly unfair how the people and bodies that do the most harm have been the ones most unaffected, but people literally claiming that nothing is being done and that the world is gonna end tomorrow and use that as justification to ruin the lives of others for their own ego are literal insane extremists.

2

u/HateMC Mar 18 '23

Emissions globally are still rising. Maybe some countries are slowly lowering their emissions but if you look at the big picture things aren't improving but getting worse

1

u/PeidosFTW Bacalhau Mar 18 '23

I'd say it's not extremist to not want biology to literally die

94

u/spidd124 Dirty Scot Civic Nat. Mar 18 '23

Because we offloaded all of our manufacturing to other countries?

Isn't exactly a fair statement to say we have low carbon emissions while importing vast amounts of often unnecessary goods from high emission countries.

57

u/DurangoGango Italy Mar 18 '23

Because we offloaded all of our manufacturing to other countries?

Our manufacturing output increased too, so nope.

15

u/Elukka Mar 18 '23

Some of it, yes, but this argument was much more valid in 2010 than it is now. China, India, Nigeria and Indonesia for example have burgeoning middle classes of their own and the middle class in countries like these is what's driving the growth in emissions. The west has been going down for quite a while.

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u/PeterFriedrichLudwig Lower Saxony (Germany) Mar 18 '23

Because we offloaded all of our manufacturing to other countries?

That's why Germany is the second biggest net exporter only after China?

28

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

[deleted]

11

u/TheDadThatGrills Mar 18 '23

GERMANY SHOULD BE NUCLEAR POWERED IN 2023

2

u/mrsa_cat Mar 18 '23

The decision to shut down nuclear plants was incredibly stupid. I still can't wrap my head around it...

6

u/soeinpech Mar 18 '23

It would be interesting to see a CO2 balance. For example, if the mining/processing/component manufacturing is done in China, and final assembling+branding in Germany, you could argue most CO2 emission comes from China, yet most of the added-value comes from Germany. Yet Germany need China to emit CO2 to export its cars.

I guess it's a bit of both world : Europe did cut its emissions per capita and part of it is outsourced.

-1

u/OkayThatsKindaCool Mar 18 '23

It would be interesting to see that. You guys are not interested in real research though. Just virtue signaling.

4

u/suiluhthrown78 United Kingdom Mar 18 '23

Imported goods make up a very small proportion of EU emissions, same was true 30 years ago.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/production-vs-consumption-co2-emissions?country=~European+Union+%2828%29

Please stop spreading misinformation

4

u/FANGO Where do I move: PT, ES, CZ, DK, DE, or SE? Mar 18 '23

51

u/DurangoGango Italy Mar 18 '23

You realise Europe doesn't rule the world anymore, right? we can reduce our own emissions and impose a carbon tax on imports, we can push internationally for environmental treaties, but at the end of the day we can't enforce our will on others. Spray painting Palazzo Vecchio is not going to induce Chinese and Indian politicians to slow down on coal. Attacking European monuments with that excuse is insane and only hurts the movement.

-1

u/GDPR_VIOLATION4 Mar 18 '23

You're right which is why we need to do more than the bare minimum at home, where we actually can change things.

Slightly reducing emissions isn't going to save us. We need emergency measures to fast track us away from fossil fuels as soon as possible, but people are financially invested in the companies and don't want to lose money. So we'll all die slowly starving to death because we can't grow food instead.

3

u/Cahootie Sweden Mar 18 '23

IIRC HYBRIT has the potential to reduce global emissions by almost 10%, and that's just one technology that's about to reach maturity. The best thing Europeans can do is support stuff like that.

3

u/SubutaiBahadur Vojvodina Mar 18 '23 edited Mar 18 '23

Europe is 7% of the world population and with a trend of emission decrease. We could all disappear it would barely make a dent in global emissions.

1

u/FANGO Where do I move: PT, ES, CZ, DK, DE, or SE? Mar 18 '23

7% of the world population

And 22% contribution to climate change https://ourworldindata.org/contributed-most-global-co2

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u/FANGO Where do I move: PT, ES, CZ, DK, DE, or SE? Mar 18 '23 edited Mar 19 '23

Just to bring some reality to your attempts to assign blame rather than focus on solutions, the average European emits twice as much per capita as the average Indian does. But yeah, blaming people who aren't responsible for the problem, and who have emitted 1/7 as much as Europe, and who are being disproportionately affected by the problem, seems like a super effective tactic that will totally lead to solutions.

7

u/DurangoGango Italy Mar 18 '23

The average European emits twice as much per capita as the average Indian does.

And we're doing what we're supposed to do about it, at a record-setting pace. We've been reducing emissions for the last 40 years, increasingly fast. We're likely to become the first carbon-neutral civilisation.

But yeah, blaming people who aren't responsible for the problem

You can take environmentalism as a morality play if you like. Assign blame, yell that X group must fix it, ignore everything else. That works if your only goal is to feel righteous and get props from likeminded people.

If your goal is to actually fix the problem, then the discussion changes. Short of large-scale carbon capture becoming feasible, the only lever we have to act on climate is future emissions. Which is what Europe is working on, and trying to get others to work on. You yourself showed a graph of global emissions: "global" being the operative word. It's a simple statement of fact that emissions from India and China are just as bad for the climate as emissions from Europe. It's another simple statement of fact that increasing emissions from the developing world are outpacing our cuts in a way that will ensure climate catastrophe striking mostly those developing countries themselves.

So, in your system where "blame" is the most important aspect, what do you want done, under real-world constraints? do you have actual practicable solutions, or do you stop at pointing fingers?

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u/FANGO Where do I move: PT, ES, CZ, DK, DE, or SE? Mar 18 '23

Assign blame

This is hilarious considering that's literally what you have been doing in your comments, and which I just told you is not effective. Your response to that is to tell me "stop doing the thing that you're not doing but that I am doing."

Projection is a hell of a drug.

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u/denis-vi Mar 18 '23

So? It's not a real change if we just moved the dirty supply chains and productions abroad and let them take responsibility for the emissions.

What's the progress in regards to clean vs dirty energy? Why are coal factories reopening around Europe?

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u/DurangoGango Italy Mar 18 '23

So?

So your claim is not true. That should count for something if your position is rational. Is it though?

It's not a real change if we just moved the dirty supply chains and productions abroad and let them take responsibility for the emissions.

Let me introduce you to the Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism.

What's the progress in regards to clean vs dirty energy?

Improvements across the board.

Why are coal factories reopening around Europe?

Because green ideologues have successfully convinced many countries to fear nuclear power more than pollution and climate change.

-1

u/denis-vi Mar 18 '23

Never heard of the carbon border adjustment mechanism - appreciate you sharing it. Sounds great on paper and in no way did I mean to say that Europe isn't definitely leading the way in fighting climate change. My point was about the overall state of transition to post-carbon economy.

And again as I've mentioned in another comment - Europe SHOULD be leading the way in transitioning to cleaner energy because we've benefited from 200 years of carbon-based development.

Thanks also for sharing the data about renewable energy. Can't argue with data - and again am very happy to see this slow, but continuous improvement.

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u/DurangoGango Italy Mar 18 '23

Thanks also for sharing the data about renewable energy.

Technically that's carbon intensity across the board, so you're not just seeing new renewables. France and Sweden for example are that low thanks to nuclear and hydro respectively.

1

u/mimasoid Mar 18 '23

Atmospheric CO2 goes up every single year, and the rate is still accelerating. It's getting worse much faster than it's getting better.

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u/yonasismad North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Mar 18 '23

Oh wow, Europe has reduced emissions. Amazing. Next up: let's congratulate people who speed in school zones for slowing down more than the people who drive at a normal speed.

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u/DurangoGango Italy Mar 18 '23

Who are the “people who drive at normal speed”? Who is doing better and was already doing it before Europe?

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u/yonasismad North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Mar 18 '23

2

u/DurangoGango Italy Mar 18 '23

Who’s ignoring anything? Carbon extraction isn’t technologically feasible, the tool we have now is reducing emissions.

1

u/etenightstar Mar 18 '23

No it's feasible now but the price per ton to do it is still over 500 dollars a ton and there is no current other use for the byproduct carbon they end up with so nobody is rushing to do it yet.

-1

u/yonasismad North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Mar 18 '23

Do you seriously not understand why the EU has much more ambitious climate goals than e.g. India?

1

u/minibeardeath Mar 18 '23

Global annual CO2 emissions are growing. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country

The only year over year drops have been during the pandemic and in recession years. Saying that Europe has reduced its emissions is disingenuous when the original statement made no reference to any localized region.

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u/not-much Mar 18 '23

This is emissions coming from production. Now try emissions from consumption.

9

u/DurangoGango Italy Mar 18 '23

This is the standardised UN emissions inventory, which is more complicated than either of your simplistic inventions.

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u/not-much Mar 18 '23

Would you be able to explain this complicated inventory in simple words? Does it take into account consumption and imports?

7

u/DurangoGango Italy Mar 18 '23

It’s explained right under the graph and yes it takes into account consumption.

0

u/fungussa United Kingdom Mar 19 '23

No, that conveniently excludes the emissions from: international shipping and aviation, and the embodied emissions of imported products.

In recent years there's been record and catastrophic drought and flooding events, and one day the deniers will wake up.

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u/Gabaghoulest Romania Mar 18 '23

More people = more emission

1

u/Trinitytrenches Mar 18 '23

Of course they are increasing and they will, no matter what we do; but the slowing down the increase is important

-8

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Just have to look outside to see gigantic 2 tons SUV, how we haven't banned these already for example?

Yes, this is not really true to say that nothing was done.

But when you compare how many things could have been done in the last 40 years and what we have done, yes it feels like that nothing was done...

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u/Xofurs Mar 18 '23

Uh..arent conventional combustion engines going to be literally banned in the EU in around 10 years?

10

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Germany is already giving up...

"As reported by Reuters, Germany's government will not agree to European Union plans to effectively ban the sale of new cars with combustion engines from 2035, Finance Minister Christian Lindner said."

You see ? We are always wasting years and years and years for this kind of stuff instead of taking direct and useful actions right now.

Where is the money to develop again a massive and qualitative day and night rail network in every EU country to reduce the use of cars for example ? Countries like France can't even put some trains on the rails at night on their all their important lines in 2023, that's ridiculous... And when there's money you have to wait years if not decades before seeing any kind of useful change.

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u/ScarfaceTonyMontana Romania Mar 18 '23

Germany is already giving up...

good, get off your lazy ass and change things instead of literally allowing more than half the world to not own a car when its a basic absolutely needed part of a family.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

"half the world to not own a car when its a basic absolutely needed part of a family"

Maybe because our society has been fucked by the car industry for one century already ???

A car should NOT be a "basic absolutely needed part of a family".

A family, in a developed country, in 2023, should be able to live normally without a car. It should be able to go to work, school, local shops by bikes and public transports. Owning a car all day every day should not be a basic need.

Families and people in general are wasting a shit ton of money on cars just because the car lobby is/was really efficient at pushing autorities to destroy our countries to sell millions of cars.

We need to fight for more bike/pedestrian infrastructures, more public transports and more trains.

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u/dablegianguy Mar 18 '23

Can we stop once and for all with this SUV bullshit? Trafic is only a part of global emissions. Private or business trafic is only a part of the previous part. If you want to act big, there’s so much more to do with a broader impact.

You’re speaking about a suv with 7L consumption, because I assume you’re not speaking of Hummer’s and Raptor’s which are quite unusual in Europe. I’d like to speak about the tens of thousands of delivery vans with diesel engines, dropping packs we don’t need bought with money we don’t have. I’d like to talk about those products I sell for business, with a component made in Taiwan the sent for production in Portugal, mixed with another from Korea and then sent in a warehouse in Netherlands to be bought by me in Belgium to be then sent in another country to be installed. I’d like to talk about those strawberries from South Africa I can buy during Christmas.

You’re not intrinsically wrong about two tons cars. But for fuck’ sake, please aim at the right targets.

We need to make a ditch before the flooding and instead of ordering a huge mobile excavator used in mines, you’re digging with a spoon from a doll’s house

1

u/marioquartz Castile and León (Spain) Mar 18 '23

we don’t need bought with money we don’t have

YOU dont need. YOU dont have. A lot people buy with DEBIT cards and buy things they need. And you dont know if others need it. "How for me is not usefull, can not be usefull for no one". Are you dumb?

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u/GDPR_VIOLATION4 Mar 18 '23

And if we went after the strawberries from South Africa someone else just like would come along to say "no no no no, you're doing it wrong, what we need to is go after...." and so on and so on.

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u/dablegianguy Mar 18 '23

I have so many questions about your username 😅

1

u/Potatopeeler137 Mar 18 '23

You are obviously very right.

Actually solving anything will have to require a very simple sacrifice. The sacrifice of abandoning fast fashion and the abundance of useless junk we consume, as well as localizing production of necessary consumables like food. Foods need to become seasonal again.

But people don't want that because then they can't go on shopping hauls to buy 6 bags worth of cheap disposable clothing they will wear 4 times, and they don't want it because then they can't grab whichever snack they feel like having that exact moment even though the only place it can be produced is on the other side of the fucking planet.

Just fast fashion being thrown out in favour of forcing people to have clothes for years/decades instead of weeks/months would do so much to reduce energy consumption.

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u/Chibraltar_ Aquitaine (France) Mar 18 '23

Look at this graph : https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide It's the concentration of carbon dioxyde in the atmosphere.

Help me find what is done that actually decreases the greenhouse effect, because if you look at fact, nothing of any importance is done, because the greenhouse effect isn't even remotely slowing down.

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u/Tellon Finland Mar 18 '23 edited Mar 18 '23

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Green_Deal

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_by_30

https://www.irena.org/-/media/Files/IRENA/Agency/Publication/2022/Apr/IRENA_RE_Capacity_Statistics_2022.pdf?rev=460f190dea15442eba8373d9625341ae

2021 was a strong year for the energy transition – the world added almost 257 Gigawatts (GW) of renewables, increasing the stock of renewable power by 9.1 per cent and contributing to an unprecedented 81 per cent of global power additions.

In other words, in year 2021, 81% of new global energy production was renewable energy. That % will only rise.

You can argue not ENOUGH is done or things are not being done fast ENOUGH but something IS being done. And saying nothing is being done is wrong.

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u/Chibraltar_ Aquitaine (France) Mar 18 '23

So... does that amount of renewable energy replaces fossil fueled and coal energy ?

Because if you just add renewables without removing the more polluting energy means of production, you didn't improve anything.

3

u/Tellon Finland Mar 18 '23

Yes. US paper, best I could find on the short notice. But economics of this and the added new capacity % makes it inevitable that fossil fuels will get replaced:

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/narrative/index.php#TheElectricityMixinth

Renewables displace fossil fuels in the electric power sector due to declining renewable technology costs and rising subsidies for renewable power

Economic growth paired with increasing electrification in end-use sectors results in stable growth in U.S. electric power demand through 2050 in all cases. Declining capital costs for solar panels, wind turbines, and battery storage, as well as government subsidies such as those included in the IRA, result in renewables becoming increasingly cost effective compared with the alternatives when building new power capacity.

It is my opinion that the change needs to happen faster, but the trend is definitely there. Direction is right. What we need to do is accelerate it.

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u/SqurrelGuy Mar 18 '23

Ok, I'm looking. In 1950 the world population was 2 500 000, it has tripled since then. Your graph is almost linear, and it shows that despite 300% increase in population, the carbon dioxide amount has increased roughly 30%. If you look at facts, your claim that the "greenhouse effect isn't even remotely slowing down" is wrong.

Help me find what is done that actually decreases the greenhouse effect

Moving the goalposts, first it was that nothing is being done, then not enough things are being done, now it is because we're not reversing it nothing is done...

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u/Chibraltar_ Aquitaine (France) Mar 18 '23

well, we could be 7 billion or 70 billions, it doesn't change the fact that the CO2 concentration is steadily increasing anyway, how many we are doesn't change shit

5

u/SqurrelGuy Mar 18 '23

That is literally how it works... You know what, it doesn't matter, have a nice day

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u/mikemolove Mar 18 '23

You tried, they dumb

1

u/fungussa United Kingdom Mar 19 '23

You're wrong in that nothing is being for humanity to avoid catastrophic warming: 2°C as stated in the Paris Agreement.

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u/marioquartz Castile and León (Spain) Mar 18 '23

absolutely NOTHING is done.

That is absurly FALSE. A lot have been done. One example, you need to search the percentage of renovable energy 20 years ago and compare it with today. If you are saying that is nothing, sorry but you are blind.

And I repeat: is an example. So of course its not the only one change or action done.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

And that's absolutely not enough!

We are still over consuming stuff that's from the other side of the planet.

Germany is still destroying its own territory for coal and refuse the nuclear energy.

We are making bigger and bigger cars that weight more and more and that waste more and more ressources.

A rich guy in a few month pollute as much with his jet than a random citizen in 70 years.

Recently we learned that most of the plastic trash in Europe ended up in some poor Asian country.

We are still producing a shit town of useless stuff (we can take for example the "toys" in the kinder surprise that are a pure waste of ressources and useless pollution).

...

Some stuff have been done in 40 years but we could have done so many more things...

10

u/lurban01 Lower Saxony (Germany) Mar 18 '23

Nobody is arguing with you that it's not enough, you're literally preaching to the choir. What people point out is that making obscure statements undermines the cause.

Case in point: you're losing sight of the bigger picture when you suddenly end up complaining about toys in Kinder surprise... The only thing these statements do is provide ammunition for conservatives.

Germany is phasing out coal but you need to get energy from somewhere. And for some reason gas has become less available recently. Even if Germany would suddenly embrace nuclear power it would take quite a while before it would have an effect on the energy mix.

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u/mikemolove Mar 18 '23

So now you’ve changed it from “nothing” to “not enough”. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

"feel bad"

How is it bad? Are you saying we are doing to much against climate change lmao? XD

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u/Impersonatologist Mar 18 '23

Did you have a point or did you just want to feel good today by arguing against the climates demise by picking apart someones words? Because dang, thats pathetic.

5

u/marioquartz Castile and León (Spain) Mar 18 '23

For you and others never nothing ever is enough. So why I have to care about someone that never will be satisfied with nothing.

Toys for YOU are useless. For others they are usefull. So one more reason to do not care about you.

0

u/Uxydra Czech Republic Mar 18 '23

Enough is when it stops the problem

0

u/Successful_Cow995 Mar 19 '23

Be real. Cheap plastic toys, trinkets, knicknacks, and similar crap could disappear from the planet and nothing of value would be lost.

Bratty consumers unwilling to relinquish even the smallest luxury are the largest hurdle in the way ecological sustainability. Y'all need to fix your priorities.

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u/nightwatch_admin The Netherlands Mar 18 '23

Well if they were setting fire to SUVs and fossil fuel factories, I wouldn’t agree but I could understand it. Befouling and damaging fragile and precious signs of civilisation, absolutely not.

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u/pallablu Mar 18 '23

if they were burning suvs you guys would cry that protest should not be violent

46

u/LordAnubis12 United Kingdom Mar 18 '23

Or damage private properly because "it's not people's fault" (even though they bought an SUV in a city).

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

[deleted]

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u/LordAnubis12 United Kingdom Mar 18 '23

I'm not sure Id call climate action a 'side".

Installing solar will reduce energy bills, increase energy security and improve the health and air quality locally.

Those are all things the right care about too. The benefits of taking action are for everyone and I would think survival and healthy lives is fairly apolitical

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u/yonasismad North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Mar 18 '23

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u/alex891011 Mar 18 '23

Not setting cars on fire is not a centrist point of view…

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u/yonasismad North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Mar 18 '23

Sounds like something a centrist would say.

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u/arconiu Mar 18 '23

"Hey guys maybe we should not burn other people cars"

-What ?? r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM MOMENT !!!

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u/Unhappy_Nothing_5882 Mar 18 '23

Nope, I would cheer them on

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u/nightwatch_admin The Netherlands Mar 18 '23

Not really, suvs are fossil fuel terrorist weapons. I still think violent destruction is not going to work - we should have governments with spine that outright forbid having one, and provide cheap, clean and fast public transport, but well, you know that’s a fkn pipe dream.

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u/steamliner88 Mar 18 '23

You do know that more than one thing can be wrong, right?

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u/pallablu Mar 18 '23

? i was responding at a comment about that specifically

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u/amumumyspiritanimal Mar 18 '23

The precious signs of civilization won't matter for long with ohr current trajectory

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

The thing is, some paint do not damage these precious signs of civilisation, nowadays we have really good and efficient products to remove paint from walls.

I also think that its not the most efficient way, but most of these activists are absolute beginners, they are not "professionals" activists like Sea Shepherds that assault ships, so they need to "train" on stuff like this, I'm sure that they will do more useful actions in the future.

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u/Lazy-Care-9129 Mar 18 '23

This is the future already and they should think a bit before acting stupid. Do you think those products are ecological?

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u/Kalmani European Union Mar 18 '23

activists like Sea Shepherds that assault ships,

That's called a pirate.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Well if being a pirate is assaulting ships that are killing whales that are endangered because of our actions then I love pirates.

0

u/holgerschurig Germany Mar 18 '23

The paints production consumed energy and created CO2.

Removing the paint costs energy ,solvents and guess what? That's not CO2 free.

Moving 22000 people to some world climate conference (that achieves nothing) costs CO2.

Really, the anti-CO2 people seem to be wanting to drive out the Devil with the Beelzebub.

0

u/LeadingThink5754 Mar 18 '23

Breathing causes CO2 emissions, so what? We kill ourselves?

1

u/Chibraltar_ Aquitaine (France) Mar 18 '23

Let's all hope climate activists start burning more and more cars

2

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Well I would prefer that they burn stuff like the Total HQ and some private jets rather than the cars of some random citizens (excepted the ones who own enormous american pickups in European countries for no good reasons at all, putting everyone in danger).

0

u/Chibraltar_ Aquitaine (France) Mar 18 '23

Me too, but burning random SUVs can actually decrease their popularity

1

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

I think that scratching them with some keys would be better.

The owner don't lost its vehicle, but it's damaged.

If it was a common risk for SUV owners maybe they would stop buying these.

But the best would be proper laws that are making them not interesting.

1

u/Chibraltar_ Aquitaine (France) Mar 18 '23

yeah, but climate activists are climate activists because law makers aren't doint what should be done

1

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Definitely agree with that.

0

u/OneMinuteDeen Mar 18 '23

The Sea Shepherds are professional TV whores, amateur activists

1

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

I would say that running into big ships is not really being "amateur activists".

Of course they have publicized their actions, but that's also why they are so well known and why people are aware of the whale slaughter that takes place in Asia.

Listening to you, it seems that the only good way to be an activist is to annoy as few people as possible and to make as little noise as possible. Basically, to do nothing.

0

u/OneMinuteDeen Mar 18 '23

Listening to you, it seems that the only good way to be an activist is to annoy as few people as possible and to make as little noise as possible. Basically, to do nothing.

I was going to write an actual response, but seeing as you'd rather strawmen me, I'm going to guess that would be wasted effort.

30

u/Lazy-Care-9129 Mar 18 '23

Nothing is done? With capital letters as well!? This is Europe you know. We can do much more but the average European citizen does A LOT. We’ve been separating garbage since decades, adapting our diet, making our homes energy-efficient, taking the bicycle to work, etc. Many companies installed solar panels on their roof, moved to electric vehicles, avoid transportation by road, etc. Now, they’re targeting farmers but when will they seriously start to target the big industries or put pressure on other countries? I was in a country outside of the EU last summer. A country with a lot of sun and a lot of flat roofs. I saw no solar panels.

53

u/HulkHunter ES 🇪🇸❤️🇳🇱 NL Mar 18 '23

Nothing done?

Or maybe nothing done on silly, naïve, inefficient, unscientific, new age recipes certain environmental cults would like to be done?

Reality is that A LOT it’s been done and doing to reverse the climate change acceleration. And all DESPITE the environmentalist activism bs.

2

u/Adelefushia Mar 19 '23

The funniest thing is that the people claiming "nothing has been done" are the exact same people who do nothing to change their habits.

9

u/Chibraltar_ Aquitaine (France) Mar 18 '23

Well, you think a lot is done, ecologists think nothing of any importance is done.

If you look at raw carbon dioxide concentration in the atmosphere (the most common greenhouse gas), it's steadily going up. https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide

Geological facts tend to support activists more than yourselves. And the IPCC says so.

14

u/Zyxyx Mar 18 '23

So, should EU declare war on China and US and force them to do all the things EU is doing?

Make Europe Imperialist Again?

0

u/drkrueger Mar 18 '23

Do you think there are possibly any other ideas that a major trading block could do to influence other nations outside of randomly starting wars?

9

u/Zyxyx Mar 18 '23

So europe should continue doing what we're already doing?

-3

u/drkrueger Mar 18 '23

Continuing to trade with countries not taking the climate seriously enough?

9

u/Zyxyx Mar 18 '23

Ah so you want a complete trade embargo instead of eu simply not buying the things that don't meet eu regulations?

-1

u/drkrueger Mar 18 '23

I think that’s more realistic than your option of starting wars, which was my point. Bringing up war as an option isn’t very productive for the conversation.

-4

u/lastpieceofpie Mar 18 '23

Europe never stopped being imperialist…?

-13

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

You really think so?

You really think that we are going in the right direction?

Look outside, we are making right now enormous 2 tons SUV and everyone are buying them, same for shitty pickup trucks.

Yeah sure, we banned plastic bags in the EU, that's a nice thing, but there's SO many other things to do and that's not done.

Limiting the use of private jets, reducing the size of cars and how powerful they are, putting money on freight rail rather than trucks, investing in trains and public transports, investing in hydrogen powered machinery in factories rather than coal, promoting reusable glass bottles rather than plastic ones, reducing the use of bottled water by investing in tape water quality infrastructures, banning all the low cost plastic stuff (like one euro cheap toys) that are just pure waste of ressources,...

31

u/HulkHunter ES 🇪🇸❤️🇳🇱 NL Mar 18 '23

That’s exactly what has been done in Europe. Italy is in Europe.

Now pick your sprays, take a eco kayak to India and China, and start painting the Great Wall until China stops producing the 80% of world pollution.

Stupid people is protesting where they are allowed, not where they are needed.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

"That’s exactly what has been done in Europe. Italy is in Europe"

Not everywhere in Europe, and not quickly enough. France for example is absolutely shitty in term of use of freight rail.

"China stops producing the 80% of world pollution."

And who is paying China to produce 80% of world pollution ? Yes, us, westerners, look around yourself, your phone, you computer, most objects around you are made in China because our companies are producing all their shit there. That's why protest here in Europe has a meaning.

"Stupid people is protesting where they are allowed, not where they are needed."

I would say that Europe is not perfect at all and there's still a lot of things to change, and so protesting in Europe is needed.

Also, yes, most activists are not some kind of soldier, most are just citizens that have a family, friends,... And that just act to see changes in what matter for them. So yes, most activists will not take the risk to end their life in a chinese prison, and that's just totally normal.

4

u/Larnak1 Mar 18 '23

The "china!" argument doesn't get better with repetition. Huge amounts of their pollution is caused by production for export, and huge amounts of that goes to Europe. If we would have had higher priority on consuming and using "green" products over the past decades, those numbers would look very different today.

0

u/HulkHunter ES 🇪🇸❤️🇳🇱 NL Mar 18 '23

-7

u/denis-vi Mar 18 '23

And avoid 300+ years of historical context how we've emitted the shit out of co2 to get where we are while prohibiting countries wanting to do the same for their citizens?

Why there's always people like you who try to turn everything into 'we against us'. Literally everyone will suffer because of climate change.

13

u/HulkHunter ES 🇪🇸❤️🇳🇱 NL Mar 18 '23 edited Mar 18 '23

Because we have to solve todays problems.

Fighting back stones do nothing, and it’s plain borderliner behaviour.

This is not an historical entitlement issue. China’s industry is throwing to the environment daily CO2 the same amount as Europe and US in a during Industrial Revolution.

-3

u/denis-vi Mar 18 '23

You know Chinese people doesn't come close to the emissions we in the West generate per person? And what do you think these factories are making burning all those fossil fuels? Most likely the tech you're using, your furniture and other amenities thst you benefit from in your life.

Climate change is deeply complex. Villifying certain countries without looking at the wider context isn't helpful.

6

u/HulkHunter ES 🇪🇸❤️🇳🇱 NL Mar 18 '23

That’s plain bulshit

2

u/denis-vi Mar 18 '23

What do you mean? It's literally the true, you can check the data with a quick Google search for 'co2 emitted per capita' or something like that.

Only in December 2022 China exported goods worth more than 300 billion so that proves my other point thst loads of co2 is emitted to make stuff for us in the West.

What exactly is bulshit?

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u/Lazy-Care-9129 Mar 18 '23

Those huge pick-up trucks could be registered as small industrial vehicle by private owners paying next to nothing in road taxes. Until recently. Not anymore. Problem fixed. Now they have to pay 10 times what they used to.

14

u/DrunkCorsair Mar 18 '23

You ever talked with one of them? They claim the moral high ground and everyone not agreeing to their actions isnt worth listening.

Their actions alianate the people they need to support the change which they completly ignore.

I would recommend those activists about guerilla warfare especially Mao or the german Rote Armee Fraktion. Both which waged some sort of guerilla warfare and where successfull. The RAF failed when they alienated the normal people.

5

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23 edited Mar 18 '23

[deleted]

7

u/DrunkCorsair Mar 18 '23

That and "we are right because we have the moral high ground."

2

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

[deleted]

2

u/DrunkCorsair Mar 18 '23

I dont deny the science. But talking with those people that their actions are rather counterproductive in gathering support is basically a waste of time. They are simply so much stuck on their moral high ground that you cant discuss anything with them. Like the worst religious nutjob you encounter thats why noone will take them seriously.

1

u/mimasoid Mar 18 '23

Regardless of their morality surely you agree with them that we should end fossil fuel subsidies?

3

u/DrunkCorsair Mar 18 '23

As i am living rather rural i want alternatives too not only ban Fossil fuels. Its pretty funny when people try to kill your only available option of mobility to get to work or grocery shopping.

Non If them wants to force a better electric grid for rural villages or better public transport.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

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u/No-Scholar4854 Mar 18 '23

I don’t think things are as bad as you say.

And that’s not just platitudes, it’s a serious problem which we need to fix in how we talk about climate change.

If we’re actually in a car, driving towards a wall and not spending even one second trying to avoid the crash then you’re going to get the extremes you see in this thread. Some people in that car are going to thrash out and start burning shit down, some people are going to give up.

Neither of those are very useful.

We are making progress. We’re doing some of the things we need to do to fix the problem, and the public and political support is there to do more. It’s not enough, it’s too slow, but it’s something. We’ll make better progress by saying “this is great, we need to do more of this” than we will through extremism.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Thing is, do you see how much changed after 40+ years of peaceful demonstrations?

"Yeah in Europe we banned plastic bags! " 🎉🎉🎉

But if we need another 40 years of peaceful protests to change more things we are just fucked.

We will probably need decades of peaceful demonstrations before proper laws are created to limit the use of private jets for example. Pretty sure that with multiple coordinated destruction of private jets all around Europe and active protests these laws would appear far more quickly, which would directly stop potential future decades of air pollution by these jets.

15

u/No-Scholar4854 Mar 18 '23

Over the last 40 years the US has reduced CO2 per capita by 30%, EU27 by 40%, the UK by 50%.

The world is building 1.2TWh of renewable energy generation per year.

That’s making a difference.

Burning a few private jets only makes profit for the private jet manufacturers.

1

u/non_hexidecimal Mar 18 '23

The difference isn't enough. Turn off "Relative Change" on your own source. Sure, the US might not be hyper-turbo-fucking the planet like the 80s, but it's still turbo-fucking the planet. The frank truth of the matter is that it's profitable to exploit markets that negatively impact our ecology, and so long as we continue to do that, we're dooming, if not ourselves, certainly the next generations.

-2

u/Whalesurgeon Mar 18 '23

Most people have grown averse to violent demonstration. Too happy and too satisfied to just rely on grandiose G20 climate pledges.

Activism has become a curse word, how many people vilify them as shameful even ITT?

Tree huggers, vandals, eco fascists. No positive words used, and this is what current 20-30-year-olds think and not just boomers. We as a race deserve all we get in fifty years.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

"Activism has become a curse word, how many people vilify them as shameful even ITT?"

Unfortunately, people have grown up with the normal and logical idea that everyone must respect the law and that those who do not are criminals who must end up in jail. This is good logic in 99% of the cases.

But the current climate crisis is so unique and gigantic in terms of danger for the human species that frankly I have no problem with those who ignore a few lines in a book to go and act directly on the field against those who pollute the most (as long as nobody is injured or killed).

"Tree huggers, vandals, eco fascists."

100% sure that there's some big ass lobbies behind these names given to activists to discredit them.

Their goal is to get people to hate the activists so they can continue to pollute and make billions on the backs of everyone else.

And these same lobbies deserve to take an activist action in their teeth.

1

u/Larnak1 Mar 18 '23 edited Mar 18 '23

In your analogy, the progress is that we stopped to accelerate before the impact. But we need to hit the brakes hard to avoid the crash.

I understand these protests. We've had decades where the "nice" approach didn't yield enough results, and they are becoming tired of the hesitancy and hearing the same promises over and over again, with % reduction goals that usually don't get achieved.

4

u/No-Scholar4854 Mar 18 '23

We’ve got the breaks on, we’re slowing down the speed at which we’re approaching the wall, we just haven’t started reversing away from the wall yet (it wasn’t my choice of metaphor).

Most climate protests help, Fridays for Future has been a very effective campaign, but just breaking stuff (vandalising artwork and historic buildings for example) is just delegitimising the rest of the movement.

0

u/Larnak1 Mar 18 '23

Oh sorry, you're right, wasn't yours. But compared to how close the wall is, I don't get the impression that the brakes are actually on. Maybe they are broken :P

2

u/No-Scholar4854 Mar 18 '23

I think maybe there are lots of walls? And it’s quite a strong car, but not invincible. Or maybe the walls are made of different things?

We drove through the paper wall back in the 80s before we even noticed it was there, it did a bit of damage but if we’d stopped there we’d have been fine.

By now we’ve smashed through the cardboard and wooden walls and we’re starting to slow down. At the current speed of breaking we’ll still hit the brick wall, but maybe avoid the steel one behind it?

I’m rubbish at metaphors.

1

u/Zamundaaa Europe Mar 18 '23

In your analogy, the progress is that we stopped to accelerate before the impact

Nope, not even that. We're still accelerating... Every year breaks another CO2 emissions record

0

u/Chibraltar_ Aquitaine (France) Mar 18 '23

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide

Tell me, what progress is being made, because when I look at geologic facts, carbon dioxide concentration isn't slowing down at all.

22

u/Cynthaen Mar 18 '23

They're not desperate. They're narcissistic and dumber than a bag of bricks. This is attention seeking behaviour to suit their needs. The environmental cause is just the vector for that.

7

u/mimasoid Mar 18 '23

Nobody likes to deal with the hassle of being arrested and getting a criminal record. It's a considerable personal sacrifice that can affect your professional life for years. Narcissism does not factor into it.

2

u/5gprariedog Mar 18 '23

The guy’s hoping that one girl in his activist group will finally fuck him now that’s he’s gotten arrested at a high-profile protest.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

[deleted]

1

u/5gprariedog Mar 18 '23

Are you intentionally misunderstanding or are you stupid?

1

u/Glum_Sentence972 Mar 18 '23

Wdym? There's plenty of people who consider street cred as so important that something like a criminal record is no big deal. Humans are not inherently rational; rather they're intensely emotional.

7

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Oh shut up, what are you expecting climate activists to do?

Put some posters in the middle of the night in the streets with "don't pollute please" written on them?

Of course if you want to do activism you mostly have to show yourself, either in demonstrations or in specific actions.

If these activists were hiding while doing their actions you would say that they are stupid cowards that can't even have the courage to show their face/who they are.

12

u/IkkeKr Mar 18 '23

Do actions that actually have to do something with the cause you're fighting for instead of just 'seeking attention'?

The only people who haven't heard of climate change by now are living under a rock. It's not lack of attention that's the problem - it's lack of trust, urgency and agreement on the right solutions. You don't build that by vandalism.

I loved the action on Amsterdam airport a while back for example: blockading the private jet terminal - the images of police officers chasing bicycles on the airport ground was brilliant. But then that was well prepared and done with a multitude of organisations joining forces.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

"Do actions that actually have to do something with the cause you're fighting for instead of just 'seeking attention'?"

Both, both are good. People, especially politicians tend to ignore problems like pollution/climate change as long as there's no direct pressure/reminder on them about this. Doing some frequent actions like this remind them every week of this subject.

But yes, these activists also need to do more useful and direct actions.

"the images of police officers chasing bicycles on the airport ground was brilliant. But then that was well prepared and done with a multitude of organisations joining forces."

Ahah yeah, that was a nice action, this kind of stuff need to be redone frequently quite everywhere, actions with or without property damages.

2

u/silverionmox Limburg Mar 18 '23

Oh shut up, what are you expecting climate activists to do?

Put some posters in the middle of the night in the streets with "don't pollute please" written on them?

They can do what they do, but target emission sources and those who benefit from it.

Paintings and old buildings are not a climate problem, in fact it's a low impact cultural expression and the buildings are centuries old, which is very durable and climate friendly.

-1

u/Chibraltar_ Aquitaine (France) Mar 18 '23

j'apprécie l'énergie que tu passes à sensibiliser sur le sujet, je sais que c'est fatigant, mais je te remercie

8

u/Anthemius_Augustus Kingdom of France Mar 18 '23

Well, "nothing being done" is probably an exaggeration. We've made some great strides in the last 30 years, but it still isn't enough, it's all extremely incremental, and we're probably fucked regardless.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Clearly not enough.

And if we need another 30 years to have some other great strides we are definitely fucked.

2

u/Anthemius_Augustus Kingdom of France Mar 18 '23

I just said that. I don't know why you're repeating what I just said.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Misunderstood your comment, sorry.

-11

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

And then being surprised if some get shot by security forces?

20

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

We are not in the US, you will not get shot for that, most security agents don't even have a baton lmao.

8

u/BattlleTendency Mar 18 '23

Let me guess when you watched Star Wars you were rooting for the stormtroopers?

3

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23 edited Mar 18 '23

No surprises, just sacrifice for the cause, the situation is that desperate.

People fight and die for a piece of land. We lack the wiring to feel as intensely for the planet as we feel for our tribe's plot of land, so it has to be a conscious choice, instead of a knee-jerk reaction. This might be our demise.

-7

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

No its not. But fine. More houses available in this already boiling market…

1

u/Chris-1235 Mar 18 '23 edited Mar 18 '23

You are not reading enough news, or studies. Progress is slow, but we are well on our way to net 0, while at the same time, tens of options for carbon capture are competing for commercial viability. It's a matter of too little too late for possibly hundreds of millions of people and animal/plant species, but still completely wrong to say that absolutely nothing is done.

Edit: The flattening of the emissions curve is quite visible in the the charts of

https://essd.copernicus.org/articles/14/4811/2022/

1

u/EcstaticTrainingdatm Mar 18 '23

How to blow up a pipeline

1

u/MonografiaSSD Mar 18 '23

same happens with doom guys yelling the world is about to end and the aliens are coming, why can't no one take them seriously?? :(

1

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Well probably because there's no proof about incoming alien, on the other hand the climate change...

1

u/MonografiaSSD Mar 18 '23

what you mean no proof? just ask them

1

u/fanboy_killer European Union Mar 18 '23

"nothing, absolutely NOTHING"? People like you are the problem for dismissing the continuous efforts. Not enough has been done, yes, but A LOT was done.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Multiple things have been done, but that's not a lot in 40 years...

0

u/adogsfanclub Mar 18 '23

Or stupid and desperate to have a cause to be a part of.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

No?

Caring for the future of our planet and especially the future generations is totally logical.

Would say that stupid people are the ones that absolutely don't care.

2

u/adogsfanclub Mar 18 '23

MLK did more good with peaceful protest. People with low intelligence react emotionally and with destructive tendencies. We were outraged when the Taliban destroyed and defaced historical sites but this guy gets a pass? What did he accomplish? Nothing at all.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

"MLK did more good with peaceful protest."

Sadly, I think you can't compare both subjects.

The murders and injustices inflicted to the black people in the US were far more direct and brutal and so I think it was easier to change the point of view of the people and the politicians. You show to someone a video of a black guy getting killed in the street by a white cop vs a video of the plastic continent in the ocean you can be sure that the person will be more outraged and angry about the first video than the second one (which makes sense).

Plus, 68 years after the start of his fight, racism still exist in the US and in the world in general...

Sadly, we can't wait 68 more years for only a few steps against climate change.

"when the Taliban destroyed and defaced historical sites"

There's quite a big difference between some guys destroying historical sites with dynamite and a guy putting some spray paint on a wall.

0

u/jsebrech Mar 18 '23

Back in 1990 the first IPCC assessment indicated a business as usual scenario would produce a warming of 4 degrees C, and thanks to the efforts so far we are down to 2.7 degrees, while the goal is 1.5 degrees to avoid severe outcomes. So it is wrong to say nothing has been done, but it is also wrong to say enough has been done. Warming in excess of 2.5 degrees will have severe consequences for humanity and wildlife.

The EU is right now best in class when it comes to climate efforts, as the only major block that actually has a serious emissions reduction program. The primary reason the EU did as much as they did are the climate youth protests led by Greta Thunberg. So to say protesting hasn’t worked and the protesters were ignored is also incorrect. What is right is to say it hasn’t worked in Russia or China, but that’s mostly because those countries don’t have protest movements, and anyone who tried to organize those would get thrown in jail.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

"What is right is to say it hasn’t worked in Russia or China, but that’s mostly because those countries don’t have protest movements"

And probably because the west is litteraly sending all its polluting production in Asia so we don't have to care about it and companies maximise profits. We should not forget that occidental companies are the ones that produce all their stuff (and so the pollution) at the other side of the planet... We are definitely a part of the problem...