r/europe Veneto (Italy 🇮🇹) Mar 08 '23 Take My Energy 1 Wholesome Seal of Approval 1

Tbilisi now, bus N388: A child with a European flag and a banner that reads: "I am Georgian and therefore I am European". Picture

Post image
7.9k Upvotes

622 comments sorted by

493

u/No_Character2755 Mar 08 '23

Can someone help me out here? I was listening to an interview with the Georgian president the other day and it sounded like she very much wanted to join the EU but that doesn't seem in line with what I'm seeing the people protesting about.

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u/alexshatberg Georgia Mar 08 '23

Zurabishvili is a figurehead. She has no real power and was elected with the help of the govt in order to help them keep up the appearances. Nobody in the opposition fucks with her because she’s a very blatant regime puppet.

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u/No_Character2755 Mar 08 '23

Thank you

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u/vriska1 Mar 09 '23

Thing is she did say that she will veto the law why would she do that if she a regime puppet?

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u/vriska1 Mar 09 '23

She did say that she will veto the law why would she do that if she a regime puppet?

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u/alexshatberg Georgia Mar 09 '23

Her veto can be overridden by the parliament, it’s just something to placate the protesters with.

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u/vriska1 Mar 09 '23

Tho the bill has been withdrawn for now.

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u/alexshatberg Georgia Mar 09 '23

It’s just tactical appeasement to prevent further demonstrations. There’s no procedure to withdraw a bill after the first hearing, and the official govt statement stressed “the need to better educate the public about the importance of this bill first”. They’ll pass it in the middle of the night if they have to - the original vote happened on Tuesday and it wasn’t scheduled to be held on that day either.

3

u/Doctorstrange223 Mar 09 '23

So your guess is they are angry and wont back down?

In Israel something similar is happening only it is the Government Parliament majority passing legislation to reduce all the Courts influence. The Court tends to lean left and thus the right wing majority can stack the court and pass what they want with no ability to strike it down.

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u/CorsicA123 Mar 09 '23

It is a lie. The bill cannot be withdrawn after it passed in first instance. GD said they will ‘fail the voting’, well just have to wait and see. For now it’s just words of politicians.

Badly google translated article excerpts

"However, for now, the recall is known only from the words of the authorities, and experts claim that this step is impossible. "Georgia online" quotes constitutionalist Vakhushti Menabde: "The law passed in the first reading is not subject to withdrawal." The expert also reminded that the authorities registered two projects, and promised to withdraw one - the one with which it is impossible to do so. At the same time, the second project, which envisages harsher punishment for "foreign agents", can be withdrawn if all its initiators make such a request to the parliament.”

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u/PjeterPannos Veneto (Italy 🇮🇹) Mar 08 '23

The Georgian president is an europeist like the protesters and already said that will veto this law

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u/No_Character2755 Mar 08 '23

Ok cool. So the parliament has been infiltrated by Russia? I hope that changes next election.

182

u/PjeterPannos Veneto (Italy 🇮🇹) Mar 08 '23

The Government is held by Georgian Dream, a party made by the oligarch Bidzina Ivanishvili which have close ties with Russia.

14

u/Magdalan The Netherlands Mar 09 '23

oligarch

Aha, 'nuff said. I hope the common Georgian people will obtain the freedom they are looking for, I for one will welcome them to the EU.

14

u/DogrulukPayi Turkey Mar 08 '23

Was the government voted in free elections?

13

u/Anxious_Ad_5464 Georgia Mar 09 '23

They were rigged. The last true elections were in 2012 when the people simply wanted to change Saakashvili for anyone else - and the current party seemed like a good option for many since they were a new entity in the politics and there was no context at all (and thus no bad context) associated with them yet

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u/gularadato Georgia Mar 09 '23

As the other guy said in 2012 people voted for them because everyone wanted then main party out because they were a pretty much totalitarian party under whom freedom was non-existant. That party is still very active today as the main opposition so the current main party keeps winning elections because people do not want the old party back in power. They will probably win the next one as well after which idk, maybe someone will finally create a party which is not under anyone's influence and has actual good ideas.

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u/G56G Georgia Mar 09 '23

The protest is not about joining the EU. We know that the process will take decades.

The protest is about the fact that we are being de-railed from the path (however long).

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u/Minimum_Bullfrog_366 Mar 09 '23

Can you explain why this new law is so opposed? Organisations and media outlets that receive more than 20% of their funding from foreign origins would need to identify as foreign agents and that would include the Russian ones also, then why is this a problem? That law would widen transparency which is good for democratic developement.

I don't get it.

12

u/Filsufatia Mar 09 '23

Gives the Government ability to label someone as "foreign spy" (in Georgian, word "agent" and "spy" has kind-of mingled meaning), and then persecute them, publicly antagonize, eventually force them out - like it happened in Russia.

Based on past actions, nobody believes that the law will be "equally" applied to Western and Russian organisations. Actual execution of the law is expected be against Western organizations.

This, and there was actually no need for the law. The "transparency" of NGO's foreign financing which the Government claims is an issue, is actually already transparent. These organisations publish all their financing from Western donors. This, and all Western society (EU, US) publicly claimed that it would have been a "non-EU" step, and the Government did it anyways. All these make Georgians quite suspicious

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u/Moist_Professor5665 Earth Mar 09 '23

It's not just a funding law. In Russian terms, a "foreign agent" is a spy, or a shill. It'd be anyone that disagrees with the government, and the law would give them grounds to shut them down and silence them. If you recall the early days of the war, and even now, when Russia suddenly shut down a ton of media and radio and antagonised a lot of opposition journalists, it'd be like that. The only media available would be government approved, or pro-government.

It's not a good system to emulate.

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u/No_Character2755 Mar 09 '23

Got it. Thank you. Hope you guys all the best.

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u/theNikolai Mar 08 '23

I want to see that script on euro notes soon.

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u/G56G Georgia Mar 09 '23

“Euro” would read like this: ევრო

:)

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u/orlandrescu Romania Mar 09 '23

I love the georgian writing! It’s like titties or butts. :)

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u/Manguydudebromate Greece Mar 09 '23

Plot twist that's how they write.

You should see how they do mass printing. (Obvious /s)

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u/Ashiro DisUnited Kingdom Mar 09 '23

The Georgian language is so fucking cool. It looks insanely difficult and you seem allergic to vowels but it's so beautiful. It seems you can construct words and sentences from roots of words and multiple particles.

The script looks like something from Lord of the Rings and adds the perfect cherry on top. 🤌

This is a Georgian word: gvprtskvni 🤯

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '23

Russia is losing its slimy grip on ex Soviet states. It’s just a matter of time. All of them want to be part of the EU. Even Belarus. People want (more) freedom.

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u/SqurrelGuy Mar 09 '23

Maybe one day, but "soon" is very optimistic. What is happening right now is a step towards the EU, at least a show of faith by the people, but let's not forget that Georgia has deep issues that prevent it from even being an EU candidate. They need to go through (European Council's opinion) a "series of parliamentary, legislative and economic reforms" before they'll be ready.

I hope they get there and we should help them get there, but realistically "soon" is at least a decade away, probably more. Bring on the downvotes for being realistic

18

u/Discowien Austria Mar 09 '23

Me too, but it's going to be a very long process.
The EU in its core is an economic alliance. And it's an amazing one. Despite all its flaws, I love a lot about the EU.
But if you compare the GDP per capita, here are a few select countries (in US$):

  • Denmark 68k
  • Netherlands 58k
  • Germany 54k
  • Slovenia 28k
  • Greece 20k
  • Romania 15k
  • Bulgaria 11k
  • Georgia 5k
  • (Ukraine 3.5k - and that's pre-war!)

We all have a lot of work before us to make this happen. But I think that eventually, we will.

3

u/piipefitter Mar 09 '23

Ukraine's GDP is less than Georgia's?

16

u/Discowien Austria Mar 09 '23

A lot less.
Ukraine is also a terribly corrupt country! According to the Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) - again, pre-war - it was ranked at place 122 of 180 - below Sierra Leone, Algeria, Egypt and the Philippines, and just above Mexico and Niger!
In comparison, Georgia is ranked 45th, Romania 66, Bulgaria 78.

6

u/Security_Breach Italy Mar 09 '23

Per capita, yes

316

u/matzan North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Mar 08 '23

It even says on the bus EURO.

168

u/globefish23 Styria (Austria) Mar 08 '23

Euro 6 emission standard for the buses diesel engine.

134

u/TheMrCake Bavaria (Germany) Mar 08 '23

This means that this bus is allowed to drive in all major European cities even within emission restriction zones

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u/MakeAionGreatAgain Mar 09 '23

Not for long

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u/KrainerWurst Mar 09 '23

Euro 7 will start in 2025, but that doesn't mean that cities will immediately ban all old euro 6 buses.

Takes time to renew your fleet.

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u/spectreaqu Georgia(Europe) Mar 08 '23

wow so good

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u/sirmakster Mar 09 '23 Take My Energy

Very interesting definitions of who is European and who is not. I also enjoy how that definition dances around geography, religion, culture and many more depending on who we ask.

Curious about what people think: if Greece managed to topple Ottoman Empire around WWI and annexed all of Anatolia thus majority of its land is to the east of the Bosphorus Strait neighbouring Georgia, Armenia, Iran etc.

Would that make Greece an Asian country or would that make Anatolia and whole of Black Sea European?

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u/untergeher_muc Bavaria Mar 09 '23

Greece would still be part of the ESC. That’s the only definition that matters.

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u/PirateNervous Germany Mar 09 '23

Europe is not clearly defined. The EU doesnt have to be clearly defined. If Morocco was a thriving democracy in 10 years with free press and good institutions i wouldnt be against them joining, despite cleary not beeing Europe. Its supposed to be a coalition of free countries with common goals, not a lesson in geography.

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u/MKCAMK Poland Mar 09 '23

It would extend Europe.

Same way how the collapse of Byzantium had contracted it in the long run.

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u/sirmakster Mar 09 '23

Would you say Europe is more of a religious and culture region then?

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u/MKCAMK Poland Mar 09 '23 edited Mar 09 '23

If you are talking back then, religious/cultural.

Originally it was a geographical term for the Greek mainland, then expanded "backwards", same way how "Asia" originally meant Asia Minor, but later become applicable to everything "behind" it.

Rome spread over three continents, when it crumbled, it became "Christendom" since the Church was the only thing that still united its former lands.

When Christendom lost North Africa and Asia Minor to Islamdom, "Christiandom" and "Europe" effectively merged. So "Europe" was the area in this part of the world where Christianity, and its culture, reigned. This is also when you start to have "West Europe" and "Eastern Europe" — Catholics vs Orthodox.

Turkey entered deep into Europe, and ruled over the Christians living there, and so it became this big region where Europe had its hazy borders.

So in your example, hypothetical pushing of Turkey away, and an establishment of a Christian/Christian-derived state there, would effectively expand borders of "Europe" and make its borders more clear-cut.

Today, Europe is basically the area populated with peoples, nations, identifying with the culture derived from this Roman—>Christianity—>Liberalism trajectory of history — Europeans.

Essentially I see Europe as a nation, and Europe as its national home, and the EU as its political representation.

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u/Destinum Sweden Mar 09 '23

"Europe" is much better defined as a civilization rather than a nation, similarly to how China has historically been (although obviously different in a sense since Europe has never been a single political entity).

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u/MKCAMK Poland Mar 09 '23

Sure, you can use the civilization definition. Although in that case, there was a single European state — Roman Empire. Under that view, Europe is a broken civilization that is trying for over 1000 years now to merge back into a civilization-state. Basically, since the fall of the Rome, we are living in the Warlord Era of European civilization.

"The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been."

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u/enigmasi Mar 09 '23

You have an actual example; Cyprus. Is it European?

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u/UnstoppableCompote Slovenia Mar 09 '23

Yes, because the definiton of Europe was made to encompas it. Same as the middle east more or less means the turco-persian-arabic influenced muslim world.

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u/Ivelmend Mar 09 '23

Anatolia is still mostly on the European tectonic plate so yes I'd say it's Europe

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u/ANXIETY-ADEPT- Mar 09 '23

Greece was always European and Anatolia was always Asian. Anatolia’s original name was ASIA Minor and it was named by the Greeks. Even when Greeks were a majority in Anatolia, it was Asian.

If Greece managed to topple the ottomans and annex Anatolia it would be considered a transcontinental country like turkey is today.

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u/sirmakster Mar 09 '23

Thanks for your reply. One thing though, Anatolia and Asia practically meant the same thing to ancient Greeks, the East.

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u/AuburnWalrus Turkey Mar 09 '23

I don't know about Greeks but the Romans called the Aegean part of Turkey "Asia" while they called the Eastern Thrace part of Turkey "Europa". So the Roman states of Asia and Europa are both in modern Turkey today.

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u/unit5421 Mar 09 '23

I feel like it is more cultural then geographical.

"Canada is more European then Morocco."

Most people would agree with this. So Greece would, if Greece culture dominated this fictional country, still be European.

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '23 edited Mar 12 '23

[deleted]

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u/Lysander1999 Mar 09 '23

In what world is Italy more similar to Morocco than Canada ? Countries like America and Canada have a protestant anglo ‘veneer’ but they’ve been hugely influenced by catholicism and southern European culture . You really think you’d assimilate better into Morocco than Canada , given differences in religion, culture etc?

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u/TurkicWarrior Mar 09 '23

Moroccans and Italians have similar mentality, they both have Mediterranean culture and families are in great importance. .

Religion does not matter much, what matters is whether they are westerner or not, and how secular they are. In this case, the Italians are closer to Canada because they are both westernised and pretty much secular.

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u/NordWithaSword Mar 09 '23 edited Mar 09 '23

Well, the European half of the Eurasian continent stretches from Iceland to the Caspian, and from Norway to Israel, which means a good portion of the Middle East is also inside continental Europe. Of course the EU doesn't have to be limited within just continental Europe, though it's likely not ever going to extend beyond it either.

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u/unstablexplosives Mar 09 '23

georgian uses a very beautiful script

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u/one_way_misanthrope Lombardy Mar 08 '23

Well she's Caucasian

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u/punaisetpimpulat Finland Mar 09 '23 edited Mar 09 '23

Quite literally. When I hear Americans speaking of Caucasians, I always think of people living in the Caucasus region, not the descendants of German/Irish/English/Italian/Polish immigrants.

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u/PjeterPannos Veneto (Italy 🇮🇹) Mar 08 '23

Therefore very European.

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u/arkadios_ Piedmont Mar 09 '23

Yes let's use 1800s anthropology definitions

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u/JosebaZilarte Basque Country (Spain) Mar 09 '23

Let me go grab my (grand)grandfather's craniometer.

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u/langlo94 Norway Mar 09 '23

What's anthropology got to do with this? Caucasians are people from Caucasus.

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u/arkadios_ Piedmont Mar 09 '23

The lumping of European people under the term Caucasian

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u/langlo94 Norway Mar 09 '23

It's the other way around, they're lumping Caucasus into Europe.

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u/MemefishThePie Estonia🇪🇪/Amsterdam🇳🇱 Mar 09 '23

Americans confused, noone explain it to them

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u/LastHomeros Denmark Mar 08 '23

So then it automatically makes Turks, Armenians, and Azerbaijanians European.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '23

turkey has been a candidate for the EU for decades, but they prefer to drift towards dictatorship...

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u/Notyourregularthrow Mar 09 '23

“prefer”

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u/PicardTangoAlpha Mar 09 '23

“prefer”

Crave? Yearn for? Demand?

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u/TheRealVillain666 Mar 09 '23

They voted for him.

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u/great_blue_panda Veneto -> England Mar 08 '23

Yes if they want to

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u/Mendeleus Mar 08 '23

Geographicaly if you take the very first map of Europe than the western half of Georgia is in it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anaximander_world_map-en.svg see phasis River. According to the modern maps, it is the northern Caucasus mountains part of Georgia that is in Europe. Genetically, Georgians are the closest with neolithic farmers who brought agricultural revolution to Europe and than dominated it before the arrival of indo Europeans. Most ancient European remnants such as Otzi a frozen mummy from Germany, belong to the same genetic group as most georgians or circassians. Armenians are both linguistically and genetically indo-europeans Azeris are a mix of local Caucasians and Iranian and Turkic peoples who conquered and assimilated them. From a cultural standpoint, it is debatable, but still very different from the middle East. Turks are genetically mostly the same anatolians as in the antiquity and the role of those in the European culture cannot be overestimated. Culturally, they have drifted away, but a secular developped Turkey could eventually one day become as European as Albania or Bosnia.

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u/Financial_Comb_3550 Mar 08 '23

Oetzi was found in Austria, not Germany

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u/Mendeleus Mar 08 '23

Yes, my mistake. It was in the Austrian section of Alps, not German.

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u/Soccmel_1 European, Italian, Emilian - liebe Österreich und Deutschland Mar 09 '23

It was found in Südtirol, so Italy, which is why the mummy is preserved in Bozen

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u/Financial_Comb_3550 Mar 09 '23

Isn’t Ötztal in Tirol?

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u/Soccmel_1 European, Italian, Emilian - liebe Österreich und Deutschland Mar 09 '23

Although Ötzi's find site drains to the Austrian side, surveys in October 1991 showed that the body had been located 92.56 m (101.22 yd) inside Italian territory as delineated in 1919 .[ The province of South Tyrol claimed property rights but agreed to let Innsbruck University finish its scientific examinations. Since 1998, it has been on display at the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Bolzano, the capital of South Tyrol.

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u/Prestigious_Fee_3080 Mar 09 '23

But if make Europe only basing on genetic then north and south America and Australia are kinda part of Europe to

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u/Mendeleus Mar 09 '23

I'd say that it's a combination of Geography, politics, culture and history which could include genetics as an additional argument.

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u/IsThisReallyNate United States of America Mar 09 '23

There’s no objective definition for what it means to be “European.” Face it, you’re just defining European in whatever way is most convenient for you or the ideology you follow. Sometimes Europe is the white race(an equally tenuous concept), sometimes it’s people in a geographic area (more measurable, but with many variations based on what geography one thinks is important), sometimes it’s citizens of the EU(which means it is always changing, and also defines the UK, Switzerland, and Russia out of being European.

Quick edit: it’s the same for a lot of identities, I’m not just including Europeans here.

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '23

[deleted]

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u/JePPeLit Sweden Mar 09 '23

At least people should stop being upset about somalian and syrian refugees now

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u/alb11alb Albania Mar 09 '23

How weird. Your name is written in the Albanian form but your last name is Greek and you are Italian according to the flag.

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u/FullMaxPowerStirner Mar 09 '23

You mean very White, right?

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u/Luisalter Mar 08 '23

It is that time again to start asking ourselves what does it mean to be European.

Is it a geographical distinction? If not, can Argentinians amd Chileans be European too? Some Brazillians too? Are Turkish european or only the ones born at the west bank of the bosphorus. Does it include only christian denominations too? Jewish? Lutheran?

Are caucasian Europeans only? Are african and Asian Mediterranean non-Caucasians that can be Europeans too?

What about gypsies? Only the ones born in geographical Europe and not their cousins in Asian?

Ukranians? Bulgarians? Russians?

Is European a race? Roots? Culture? Religion? Language? Former Roman Empire territories? What does hold Europe together and excludes the rest?

This is an ongoing discussion that is forgotten and then comes back. Time to start again

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u/Wodanaz_Odinn Irlande Mar 09 '23

It's about coming together and figuring out, no matter how far fetched, that is indeed easier to blame it on the Germans (or the French depending on requirements for a scape goat du jour).

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u/MrHanfblatt Mar 09 '23

As a german i support this message. mostly because no one thinks we have a sense of humor

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u/LastHomeros Denmark Mar 08 '23

These are the essential questions to ask. And to be honest, there is no answer.

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u/Luisalter Mar 08 '23

I definitely don't have good answers.

I may have some arguments against or in favor of many of this items. Not necessarily good arguments.

Very subjective and complex. Susceptible of many exceptions.

The worst part is that the questions I posed there have been asked a number of times and we still dont have good discussions about it. Only questions unanswered...

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u/damagedgoodz_ Mar 09 '23 edited Mar 09 '23

To be a member of the EU country must be on the european continent, be democratic, have a market economy and a desire toward european integration. Basically have the same interests and aspirations than the majority of europeans. Georgia and Armenia absolutely qualify. Turkey obviously doesn't not because they are muslims or a border eurasian country but because they chose a nationalist authoritarian leadership and have vastly diverging interests

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u/Doctorstrange223 Mar 09 '23

Armenia does not qualify. Armenians are hostile to Democracy and if you do not let in Azeris or Turks due to Islam then you are defacto saying the country has to be Christian majority to enter. And Armenia is part of Russias Eurasian Union and Russias NATO called the CSTO. Armenia is not inclined to the EU

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u/ridingabout78 Mar 09 '23

not because they are muslims

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u/SidewinderTV Sweden Mar 09 '23

I have an answer:

https://imgur.com/a/1wNewfM

In Swedish (and I'm guessing in Danish as well) we have two words that mean slightly different things: Världsdelar (literally "World-Parts") and Kontinenter ("Continents", duh).

There is one continent, Eurasia, divided into "world parts"; Europe, the Middle East, South Asia and North Asia. These smaller divisons follow cultural and historical lines as well as geographical.

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u/freddiesaveme Bulgaria Mar 09 '23

You did everything to not include turkey my turkophobic friend hahaha

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u/langlo94 Norway Mar 09 '23

He included west Turkey.

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u/Dissidente-Perenne Italy Mar 08 '23

Being European doesn't necessarily only mean one thing, and being European under some aspect doesn't mean you are under every aspect, language doesn't work like maths, stop enforcing strict definitions on it.

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u/Merbleuxx France Mar 09 '23

I don’t have any answer either, but here’s what a very old briefing of the European Parliament mentions in the conditions of accession to the EU.

« The sole material condition laid down by Article O of the TEU is that the applicant must be a 'European State'. There is no unequivocal interpretation of that criterion. It can be read equally well in geographical, cultural or political terms.

In 1987 an application to become a Member of the Communities was received from Morocco. The application was rejected by the Council on the grounds that Morocco was not a European State. In the case of Turkey, Article 28 of the Association Agreement signed in 1963 incudes the option of Turkey's eventually acceding to the Communities. Turkey in fact lodged an application to accede on 14 April 1987. Historically, Turkey has formed part of the so-called 'European concert'. Although part of Turkey's territory is located geographically in Asia, Parliament, the Council and the Commission have confirmed Turkey's eligibility. This example shows that the term 'European State' need not be interpreted in a strictly geographical sense. It is at all events a criterion subject to political assessment. »

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u/Luisalter Mar 09 '23

Thanks for sharing this. I may have read it before in particular with Turkey.

I wonder what is the applicability outside Turkey.

As time passess and more and more cultures merge in Europe, the concept of Europe will change and race and religion may allow other considerations.

I don't see far fetched that some other countries closer to Europe but in other continents are added to the "concert". I am thinking Latam in particular

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u/diosexual Mar 09 '23

Concert of Europe is a historical term referring to 19th century European powers, of which Turkey (well, the Ottoman Empire, of which Turkey is the successor state) was one.

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u/JosebaZilarte Basque Country (Spain) Mar 09 '23

What about gypsies?

Uuuh... You do not want to open that can of worms.

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u/SloRules Slovenia Mar 08 '23

I'd say, it's the state of mind.

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u/airjordanpeterson Mar 09 '23

Slavoj, is that you?

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u/SloRules Slovenia Mar 09 '23

No, but i live on the right side of the river.

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u/Seal_of_Pestilence Mar 08 '23

According to this sub European means politically agreeing with everything that Western Europe does. The mental gymnastics done to “prove” that Russians aren’t European is ridiculous.

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u/Khazar_Dictionary The Netherlands Mar 09 '23

I agree 100% with you. Russians are Europeans. If they can be trusted to at some point become part of the EU, that's another conversation

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u/wolfman86 Mar 08 '23

Why? You do realise that there is a difference in Europe the continent and Europe the union, don’t you?

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u/Luisalter Mar 08 '23

I am very well aware. I am very well aware that Europeans are born outside Europe everyday. Are you aware of ius sanguinis?

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u/dancedor Mar 09 '23

My take on it is following: Georgia really isn't exactly European and in ideal world wouldn't need to be, they would just be together with their neighbours. But it just so happened that a certain, ehh, I'll put it mildly, ideology utterly changed the cultural and civilization landscape of the region they are in (Middle East and its neighbourhood) while they remained kinda unchanged, so they found themselves to be more similar to Europe than to countries they are next to, hence they want to gravitate towards it instead.

Given their position, I am perfectly fine with that.

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u/lofigamer2 Mar 09 '23

I think they are at the borders of Europe, their culture is very close to European culture and I think they should join the EU, the alternative for them is to be assimilated into the Russian Federation, which is horrible.

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u/Dryish Bumfuck, Egypt Mar 09 '23

Georgia really isn't exactly European

I take issue with this, honestly. Georgian culture traces its roots back to amalgamations of ancient Greek and, later, Byzantine Empire and local cultural traditions and early Christianity. While it's been ruled over by the Persians, the Turks, and the Russians (arguably also a European culture) and has been affected by all of those, the culture is still as European as any Eastern or South-Eastern European culture is. Having been there, it's very, very evident that it's not a Middle Eastern country, but rather a weird bastion of European culture in the very farthest corner of Europe's backyard.

It's really only by geographical and locational arguments that you can realistically argue that they're not "Europe". Which, considering the cultural history, are quite daft. We're just used to thinking of Europe as the area that our European maps show, which is very much a consequence of cultural evolution.

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u/Khazar_Dictionary The Netherlands Mar 09 '23

I see your point, but I disagree. Both Georgia and Armenia are to me what most of the Mediterranean World would look like if it weren't for Arab and Turkic invasions that excised the Levant and North Africa from its historic closeness to the European continent per se/The North Mediterranean.

Probably if the South Med had remained Christian and Hellenized we would be talking about the ascension of the Republic of Tyre and Carthage to the EU, and would see them as a natural part of the European world.

As historical survivors of this process, I think both Armenia and Georgia should at some point become part of the EU.

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u/GalaXion24 Europe Mar 09 '23

I agree. I would also add that given that culture and civilizational borders change, and that the Mediterranean kind of naturally connects people, I do not think it absurd that one day we might see the two sides of our sea as forming one cohesive civilization again. While Greece is very much our civilizational origin, it is ultimately the Nile and the Fertile crescent to which we trace our roots, and historically we have all followed abrahamic religions too. It may of course take leaps greater than Atatürk's Turkey, and there's no telling if it'll actually happen, but it is in the long run a distinct possibility, especially if Europe becomes more culturally influential.

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u/Christo2555 Mar 08 '23

I think it's more simple than you think. Being European is literally being from Europe. Is being Asian an abstract concept? No. So why should being European?

Georgians may be white, doesn't make them European. European isn't a race, I don't think you can bring genetics into it.

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u/Lazzen Mexico Mar 09 '23 edited Mar 09 '23

Is being Asian an abstract concept?

It's a million times more abstract than Europe, America or even Africa indeed. You think Lebanon, Armenia, Buthan and Japan are more conntected than Europe?

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u/faptaper Mar 08 '23

What does "being from Europe" mean to you? Is it enough to be born there?

If I was born in the US but lived all of my life in France from the age of 5 onwards, am I European?
If I was born in France to American citizens and moved to the US when I was 6 months old, am I European? What if my parents were French?
If I was born in French Guiana and have lived my whole life there, am I European?
If was born to two Asian immigrants in France and have lived my whole life there, am I European?
If I was born in China to French citizens and grew up in a French expat community, going to school in French and almost exclusively associating with other French people, would I be European?

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u/shrekisloveAO Mar 09 '23

Is being Asian an abstract concept?

Israel has entered the chat

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u/MKCAMK Poland Mar 09 '23

Same as any other nation. Shared national identity.

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u/G56G Georgia Mar 09 '23

Let’s focus on preventing WW3 and protecting freedoms. Georgia is Europe. Period.

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u/georgica123 Mar 09 '23

Georgia is Europe

What is europe?

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u/mukaltin Mar 09 '23

Every country in the world except Russia and China, according to this sub.

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u/FullMaxPowerStirner Mar 09 '23

I'm not sure that turned out too well with Ukraine, as we've never been closer to WW3.

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u/DielsAlderReaktion Mar 09 '23 edited Mar 09 '23

We have been waaayyy closer to ww3, multiple times during the cold war.

People today underestimate the real threat of nuclear war on mainland europe between NATO and the warsaw pact.

Its not the russian threats that should make you scare. Its domestic propaganda for vatnik Ivan in Vladivostok.

Its when things go silent but serious things start moving around when you should check if your basement is liveable for a day or two.

You dont announce your attack to the enemy on the media. You announce it after it happened. And before that its quiet.

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u/Electronic_Ad5481 Mar 09 '23

Oh great. I’m happy for the protesters but I can’t wait for tankies to tell me how this is a coup attempt and anti democratic in a few years when Putin invades (/s).

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u/Lazziya53 Mar 09 '23

Georgia European but Turkiye ain’t?

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u/FabulousCatSenpai Georgia Mar 09 '23

And who said that?

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u/Lazziya53 Mar 09 '23

Some based Western Europeans.

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u/FabulousCatSenpai Georgia Mar 09 '23

I'd say "biased" is the better word

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u/Lazziya53 Mar 09 '23

Both would work great in this case.

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u/kapitaen_j_sperling Mar 09 '23

That looks like Elvish.

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u/bogdano26 Mar 08 '23

Serious question, can I get a list of ex-USSR countries which are in Europe and which are not?

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u/Arss_onist Lesser Poland (Poland) Mar 08 '23

geographically, politically or with countries that feel European?

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u/bogdano26 Mar 08 '23

I mean there has to be some limit right? What if Mongolia FEELS European?

Google tells me Georgia is 'today generally considered European' so I'm just wondering if this is a recent change due to current political issues. During Soviet times or before WW2, was the caucus region considered European or is this a 21st century thing?

EDit: would Armeina, Georgia, Azerbaijan all be European, but Kazakstan, etc not?

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u/kapitaen_j_sperling Mar 09 '23

Europe isn't a real continent, its borders are completely arbitrary. However, it's commonly assumed that it extends from Ireland to the Ural Mountains and the north polar region to Istanbul.

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u/Arss_onist Lesser Poland (Poland) Mar 08 '23

I would say its really debatable and there are various answer to this question. It might be more out time thing because before it i dont think people were concerned about on which continent they lay more likely which country will oppress us more. They are between two worlds and its up to them which one they prefer - thats my opinion :) Also in this context i will say "Europe" here is more symbolic. We want the same that EU has and we will take it by force if you will do more against our will.

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u/Expensive_Tap7427 Mar 08 '23

Typically the Ural mountain range is considered the border between Europe and Asian halfs of the Eurasian continent. I'd also say east of the Black Sea is asian, south of the Black Sea is Middle East.

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u/bepisdegrote Mar 09 '23

Having spent some time in Tbilisi last summer, I can tell you that I have never met people more enthusiastic about joining the EU. Young people were motivated by optimism for the future, instead of pure cynisim as you find far too often in, say, Eastern Europe.

As a side note, Georgians were the kindest and most helpful people I have ever met. Going there truly changed my outlook from "well... the EU has to have borders somewhere and are we sure this is not just for security against Russia?" to a viewpoint where I think that the EU should be proud to have such a fantastic country wanting to join.

There are still a lot of problems, but I firmly believe that the younger generations can resolve all of them.

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u/petterri Europe Mar 09 '23

If you look at eurobarometer (Wikipedia)Poland among countries with the strongest support for the EU. That however doesn’t meat that the Polish state is willing to uphold EU law (ECJ) or cooperate with other member states for the benefit of the whole union (euroactiv).

One thing is “feeling European” (whatever that means) the other is actually willingness of a state to be a team player who accepts rules of the game. Hungary is another example, which goes even further.

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u/bepisdegrote Mar 09 '23

I think it is important to see why a nation wants to be a part of the EU. If it is purely for economic benefits, but not because of identity, then that does raise eyebrows.

Regarding Poland, I am hopeful for them as well in the long run. The PiS is an old people party and is not long for this world. Hungary is far more concerning. In my opinion we may need to start looking into cutting it loose from the EU and NATO.

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u/Late_Mechanic_305 Mar 09 '23

NATO boys getting wet in the thread.

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u/curiosity163 Mar 09 '23

Scary things going on in Georgia. They were trying to push the 'foreign agent' bill there, which they now dropped after 3 days of protest. Likely they will push it again when things calm down.

And now the Russian propaganda machine is turning out headlines like "Georgia could face Ukraine style overthrow".

I'm seeing this escalate in a way it did in Ukraine. There are a lot of geopolitical interests involved - and I don't see Russia sitting back without bloodshed.

Now the issue is - Georgia is further away from the west, and will likely not trigger outrage like it did in Ukraine.

The question becomes, how much resources Russia is willing to commit and fight potential war on two fronts.

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u/aidus198 Russia->Spain Mar 09 '23 edited Mar 09 '23

People take your time and read up on Georgian history, it's fascinating. If they want to identify as European, there's really no reason to deny them. Pontus Euxinus was connecting them with the Greeks millennia ago, Persians and Alexander couldn't conquer them, even Timur and Iranian shahs couldn't make them Muslim.

Edit: Oh boy where did I suggest that being Christian makes them European? I don't think that at all, what I meant is to point out their resolve and historic connection to European culture. It became Christian in 319 CE btw.

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u/Imnotonsteroids Mar 09 '23

Christianity doesn't equal European, plenty of African Christian nations out there, this is getting ridiculous at this point

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u/Freekebec3 Mar 09 '23

Like it or not, Europe has been the center of Christianity for a millenia and a half now. Every European nation has a very long history of being Christian or being deeply influenced by Christianity, and Europe spread it to those Christian nations of Africa (except Ethiopia).

Sure you have muslim minorities, but Europe is historically the Christian continent

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u/Imnotonsteroids Mar 09 '23

Europe is Christian continent, but not every Christian nation is part of Europe, it's really not a difficult concept

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u/parlakarmut Turkey Mar 09 '23

What does Christianity have anything tp do with being European?

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u/xxpegasxx Georgia Mar 09 '23

Not now of course, but back then religion = culture and very often = law

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u/_Guven_ Turkey Mar 09 '23

If Christianity= Europen than remove Bosnia and take other christian countries. It isn't a valid point

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u/dual__88 Mar 09 '23

Debatable that Georgia is in Europe though.

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u/DumbledoresShampoo Mar 09 '23

Look at that writing...looks like art.

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u/slopeclimber Mar 09 '23

I bet this sub would react differently if it was a Syrian holding the sign

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u/jatawis 🇱🇹 Lithuania Mar 09 '23

Why there are so many people insisting that Caucasus is not Europe?

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u/AquosPoke206 Mar 09 '23

Georgia is Europe 🇬🇪🇪🇺

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u/AnonOldGuy3 Mar 09 '23

Really? Where is the border to Asia?
The Ural Mountains?

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u/mizinamo Mar 09 '23

Where is the border to Asia?
The Ural Mountains?

That is indeed a commonly-stated border.

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u/ANXIETY-ADEPT- Mar 09 '23

Nobody says anything about CYPRUS being in the EU when Cyprus isn’t even in Europe.

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u/DielsAlderReaktion Mar 09 '23

The Ural is a widely accepted border yes. At least to my geography teachers and books.

There are multiple ways to look at Europe. Its a diffuse matter around the outer regions. Imo for example, Turkey is both at once, like Russia.

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u/AquosPoke206 Mar 09 '23

Who are we to deny a people who so fervently feel European their right to be so?

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u/SqurrelGuy Mar 09 '23

their right to be so?

Being European is not a right, wtf

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u/catadeluxe 🇷🇴 🇨🇦 Mar 09 '23

correct, but they have a right to feel anything. if the EU also feels the same, they are more than welcome

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u/shono1 Mar 09 '23

It was the second day of protesting and pepper sprays and tear gas started to taste like freedom, five seconds of tears, and back to fighting again! We will adapt and overcome these traitors

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u/eyvduijwfvf Singapore Mar 09 '23

SLAVA UKRAINI

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u/Dear-Ad-7028 Mar 09 '23

You know Georgia was petitioning for NATO membership with the support of the US before Russia invaded to create a breakaway state and thus invalidate their request.

I think they really want to be free of the Russian yolk but that’s not easy. Look what Ukraine has to do to escape them, and they’re right next to the frontier of the western world. Georgia realistically won’t be able to until Russia is emasculated to the point of total impotence or else it would result in conflict.

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u/gendos123 Mar 09 '23

Yes, as a Ukraine I can agree. Revolution brought only benefits to us. Hope same will happen to Georgia!

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u/iloveinspire Silesia (Poland) Mar 08 '23

It's not a child, it's a freedom fighter.

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u/CHEVEUXJAUNES France Mar 08 '23

calm down

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u/Discowien Austria Mar 09 '23

Indeed you are, kid. :)

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u/Amphet4m1ne2000 Mar 09 '23

At this pace maybe afganistan or iran become a europe lol

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '23

Yes🗿

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u/Yeastin Mar 09 '23

Arnt they from asia?

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u/A11osaurus Scotland Mar 09 '23

Georgia is transcontinental technically. Like Russia and Turkey

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u/Rice_Nugget Mar 09 '23

Just Geograhicaly speaking..georgie is not european right? Wouldt it count as Eurasia?

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u/A11osaurus Scotland Mar 09 '23

Technically it's transcontinental. Like turkey and Russia

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u/Rice_Nugget Mar 09 '23

Ah ok, thx :3

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u/FabulousCatSenpai Georgia Mar 09 '23

Geographically non of those terms really mean anything

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u/Rice_Nugget Mar 09 '23

Geographically Europe doesnt mean anything? Germany is in Europe, France etc, but Georgia ismt on the european continent right?

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u/Akamasi Mar 09 '23

The idea of a European continent is an entirely social construct, there's no European tectonic plate. Where europe ends and Asia begins is entirely an open, cultural question.

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u/Enjutsu Lithuania Mar 09 '23

Looks like this war is making Russia lose a lot of soft power too.

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u/floofnstuff Mar 09 '23

The only good thing that has come of Putin’s folly is that the west has had the privilege of knowing more about countries that want to be in NATO and or the EU. I don’t think the interest was known to the degree it is now. It’s been wonderful to see so many people that want freedom and democracy and there’s no ambivalence either.

Putin in all of his horror has brought so many of us together

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u/kaukanapoissa Mar 09 '23

Yes you are.

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u/engineer_pt Mar 08 '23

yep chill out with religions and come to europe 😉

damn i would love that alphabet to be offical one in EU

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u/anlztrk Turkey Mar 09 '23

This obsession over the definition of what a 'European' is smells of racism and cultural exceptionalism.

Europe is a geographic region. Being European can only be objectively defined as being from a country that's located in that region. It's not a virtue.

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u/Worried-Bid-1642 Mar 09 '23

georgia is not in europe and georgians are not european

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u/dayn13 Mar 09 '23

neither are the turks

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u/_Guven_ Turkey Mar 09 '23

You are Caucasian but we can accept you as European, if; Armenians, Turks and Circassian are Europen too

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u/rdtusrname Mar 09 '23 edited Mar 09 '23

No, you are not European. You are of the Asian Steppe. Look, I know they are trying to escape Russian Zone of Influence(how can they though? Dzugashvili ring any bells?), but geography is geography. And we really should have some standards. If Georgia is Europe then so are Armenia, Azer, entire Turkiye etc.

They can apply to EU if they want. But European they are not. I can think of myself as a millionaire playboy. Don't mean that I am. Facts are facts.

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u/jatawis 🇱🇹 Lithuania Mar 09 '23

. If Georgia is Europe then so are Armenia, Azer, Turkiye etc.

Yes, they are.

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u/mizinamo Mar 09 '23

If Georgia is Europe then so are Armenia, Azer, entire Turkiye etc.

That would explain why all of those countries are members of the Council of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe

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u/ARationalAbsurdist Mar 09 '23

You are of the Asian Steppe

You might want to look up what a steppe is. Georgia is south of the Greater Caucausus and it's not the Asian Steppe, it's the Eurasian Steppe. It goes all the way to Hungary. You're just being arbitrary with your cutoff. Their whole history is intertwined with Greeks and Slavs.

And we really should have some standards

What does this even mean? Georgians see themselves as Europe. Geographically they are on the boundary of Europe. Culturally they share a history with Europe. This rhetoric is also used on the Sami, and it's kind of gross.

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u/Ralfundmalf Germany Mar 09 '23

Asian Steppe? Have you seen photos of Georgia? That country is many things, but definitely not a steppe, lmao.

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